記者 王春春 張男星

文理學(xué)院有著悠久的歷史，曾經(jīng)在美國(guó)高等教育史上占據(jù)主導(dǎo)地位，如今仍是美國(guó)高等教育體系中獨(dú)具特色的一類大學(xué)，多為私立性質(zhì)，具有以本科教育為主、規(guī)模小、實(shí)施住宿制、師生比高、重視教學(xué)、堅(jiān)持博雅教育等特點(diǎn)。在美國(guó)高等教育大眾化進(jìn)程中，文理學(xué)院數(shù)量較之以往大幅減少。在這種情況下，文理學(xué)院對(duì)學(xué)生最大的吸引力是什么？學(xué)費(fèi)昂貴的文理學(xué)院真的只是中產(chǎn)階級(jí)的“秘密俱樂(lè)部”嗎？隨著越來(lái)越多的大學(xué)開(kāi)始設(shè)立類似文理學(xué)院的住宿學(xué)院，文理學(xué)院的獨(dú)特性體現(xiàn)在哪里？存在的價(jià)值是什么？文理學(xué)院如何使教師在科研與教學(xué)之間保持平衡？如何判斷文理學(xué)院的辦學(xué)質(zhì)量？文理學(xué)院特有的共同體氛圍是如何形成的？具有怎樣的作用？文理學(xué)院面臨哪些挑戰(zhàn)？是堅(jiān)持小而精，還是轉(zhuǎn)型發(fā)展，文理學(xué)院未來(lái)有怎樣的發(fā)展趨勢(shì)？圍繞這些問(wèn)題，本期高端訪談對(duì)美國(guó)瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院(Macalester College，也譯為默士達(dá)學(xué)院)校長(zhǎng)布萊恩·羅森伯格進(jìn)行了專訪。

瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院校長(zhǎng) 布萊恩·羅森伯格

●沒(méi)有一個(gè)地方是適合所有學(xué)生的——最重要的是找到適合你的大學(xué)。世界上很多人沒(méi)有機(jī)會(huì)接受文理學(xué)院的這種教育。事實(shí)上，獲得這種機(jī)會(huì)既是一種優(yōu)先權(quán)，也是一種責(zé)任——回饋社會(huì)的責(zé)任。我們的目標(biāo)不是僅僅訓(xùn)練學(xué)生獲得第一份工作，而是讓他們接受訓(xùn)練，為最后一份工作準(zhǔn)備，這意味著他們要有能力適應(yīng)各種變化。我們要讓學(xué)生知道，文理學(xué)院將有益于各個(gè)階層不同背景的學(xué)生，而不僅僅是中產(chǎn)階級(jí)和上層階級(jí)學(xué)生的選擇。

《大學(xué)》：羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)，您好！您認(rèn)為文理學(xué)院對(duì)學(xué)生最大的吸引力是什么？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：我總是對(duì)正在挑選大學(xué)的學(xué)生說(shuō)，沒(méi)有一個(gè)地方是適合所有學(xué)生的——最重要的是找到適合你的大學(xué)。每個(gè)人對(duì)這個(gè)問(wèn)題的回答都不一樣。對(duì)我們而言，關(guān)鍵是要準(zhǔn)確并如實(shí)地介紹瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院，讓學(xué)生自己判斷是否適合他們。

對(duì)于選擇瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院的學(xué)生，我覺(jué)得有幾個(gè)很重要的因素。顯然，那些對(duì)小型文理學(xué)院感興趣的學(xué)生，他們喜歡小班教學(xué)，希望與教師進(jìn)行大量的交流。他們希望一個(gè)不同于大型綜合性學(xué)校的學(xué)習(xí)環(huán)境。

但是對(duì)于那些選擇瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院的學(xué)生，我認(rèn)為還有一些其他的因素。首先是我們的校址。我們是一所坐落在大城市里的小學(xué)院，文理學(xué)院很少會(huì)坐落在大城市里。明州雙城雖然沒(méi)有北京那么大，但是也有300萬(wàn)人之多。這是很多學(xué)生選擇瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院的原因之一。

另外一個(gè)重要因素就是我們高度重視國(guó)際化，許多學(xué)生因此而來(lái)。他們喜歡我們這個(gè)學(xué)校有來(lái)自90多個(gè)不同國(guó)家的學(xué)生。他們喜歡我們有很多不同的國(guó)際化課程和活動(dòng)。要想在21世紀(jì)有所發(fā)展，不僅需要了解當(dāng)?shù)厣鐣?huì)和美國(guó)社會(huì)，還需要對(duì)國(guó)際社會(huì)有所了解，作為一所小型文理學(xué)院，我們可以提供非常有特色的國(guó)際化教育。

這就是我向?qū)W生介紹的瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院，首先，這是一所文理學(xué)院，其次，我們坐落在城市，同時(shí)還有國(guó)際化的視野。當(dāng)學(xué)生選擇大學(xué)時(shí)，我會(huì)告訴他們，如果你想選一個(gè)小的文理學(xué)院，希望在城市生活，并擁有國(guó)際化視野，這所大學(xué)非常適合。如果對(duì)這些都不感興趣，那學(xué)生多半不會(huì)認(rèn)為這是適合他的學(xué)校。我認(rèn)為對(duì)學(xué)生如實(shí)相告很重要，如果學(xué)生不明就里地進(jìn)入一所大學(xué)就讀，是不會(huì)感到開(kāi)心的。

University:What do you think attracts students most to liberal arts colleges?

President Rosenberg:I always tell students who are looking for a college that there is no one right place for every student—and the most important thing is to fi nd the college that’s right for you. The answer to that question is not the same for every student. It’s crucial for us to provide an accurate and honest representation of Macalester,so students can decide if it’s the right place for them.

For the students who are drawn to Macalester, there are several factors. Students who are interested in liberal arts colleges want small classes and lots of interaction with faculty members. They want a different environment than a large university.

But at Macalester in particular, there are additional factors that are very important to the students who choose us. One is our location: we are a small college in a large city, and there are very few liberal arts colleges that offer that combination. The Twins Cities aren’t large like Beijing, but there are about three million people. That’s one reason that students are attracted to Macalester.

The other big piece is that we are so internationally focused. Many students enroll because of that. They like the fact that we have students from almost 90 countries. They like that we have so many different internationally focused programs. If you are going to thrive in the 21st century, it’s good to have an understanding of the global community, not just your local community or the American community. We provide that at a pretty unique level for a small college.

That’s what I tell students about Macalester: it’s liberal arts, it’s urban, and it’s international. I tell students that if you want a small liberal arts college, if you want to be in a city, if you want a global focus, this could be a great match. If those things are not interesting to you, then our students probably don’t agree that it’s a good match. It’s important to be honest with students, because no one would be happy if students enroll at a college without knowing what’s behind their choice.

《大學(xué)》：每所學(xué)校都有其獨(dú)特之處，文理學(xué)院有著怎樣的教育使命？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：是的?，斂ㄈR斯特學(xué)院的教育使命包括以下四大方面，即追求卓越學(xué)術(shù)、國(guó)際主義、多元文化，以及融入社會(huì)。追求學(xué)術(shù)卓越是最重要的一點(diǎn)，沒(méi)有卓越的學(xué)術(shù)水平，其他都是空談。國(guó)際主義也就是強(qiáng)調(diào)全球視角，多元文化即吸收不同文化背景的人才，融入社會(huì)意味著要服務(wù)社會(huì)。

我們深信這些價(jià)值。當(dāng)我跟學(xué)生談起我們的使命及其意涵時(shí)，我告訴他們，你們?cè)诂斂ㄈR斯特學(xué)院接受的是一種非常優(yōu)越的教育。世界上很多人沒(méi)有機(jī)會(huì)接受這種教育。事實(shí)上，獲得這種機(jī)會(huì)既是一種優(yōu)先權(quán)，也是一種責(zé)任——回饋社會(huì)的責(zé)任。我們的學(xué)生一定要意識(shí)到自己的幸運(yùn)并幫助那些不這么幸運(yùn)的人。這也是瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院的精神之一。我們希望所有學(xué)生取得成功，也希望他們幫助別人獲得成功。我喜歡說(shuō)，瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院的畢業(yè)生不僅在自己的領(lǐng)域非常成功，而且通過(guò)各種途徑幫助他人回饋社會(huì)。這也是這所學(xué)校的精神所在。

University:Every college is unique. What’s the mission of liberal arts colleges?

President Rosenberg:At Macalester, we talk about our mission in terms of four pillars: academic excellence, internationalism, multiculturalism, and civic engagement. Academic excellence is fi rst and foremost—without academic excellence, nothing else really matters. Internationalism emphasizes the global focus;multiculturalism means bringing together people from many different cultures and backgrounds. civic engagement means service for society.

We believe deeply in these values. When I talk to our students about our mission and what it means， I tell them that the kind of education you get at Macalester is a great privilege. Most people in the world don’t have opportunities for that kind of education. This opportunity is a great privilege, but it’s also a responsibility—a responsibility to give back. Our students must recognize that they’re fortunate, and they need to help others who aren’t as fortunate. That’s part of the spirit of Macalester College. We want students to be successful in their own right, but we also want them to help others to be successful. I love to say that Macalester graduates are not only very successful in their fi elds but also fi nd ways to give back in their communities to others in need. That is the spirit of this school.

《大學(xué)》：文理學(xué)院的學(xué)生畢業(yè)后一般從事什么工作？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：他們從事各行各業(yè)的工作。你知道，在瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院，有些專業(yè)的畢業(yè)生直接進(jìn)入職業(yè)生涯?，F(xiàn)在，數(shù)學(xué)專業(yè)和計(jì)算機(jī)科學(xué)專業(yè)很受歡迎，經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)專業(yè)也很熱門。這些專業(yè)的很多學(xué)生畢業(yè)后直接從事金融和技術(shù)工作。而其他專業(yè)的就業(yè)傾向不是很明顯，譬如我自己所學(xué)的英語(yǔ)專業(yè)，以及歷史和哲學(xué)專業(yè)。但是我們的目標(biāo)是讓每一位學(xué)生都能掌握一些技能，使他們?cè)谧约旱穆殬I(yè)生涯中取得成功。

需要注意的是，工種總在變化?，F(xiàn)在社會(huì)最重要的一些工作20年前根本就不存在。因此我們的目標(biāo)不是僅僅訓(xùn)練學(xué)生獲得第一份工作，而是讓他們接受訓(xùn)練，為最后一份工作準(zhǔn)備，這意味著他們要有能力適應(yīng)各種變化。一個(gè)普通美國(guó)人一生平均要換4—6份工作。我們要保證我們的學(xué)生準(zhǔn)備充分，可以適應(yīng)所有的工作，即使有些工作他們現(xiàn)在還沒(méi)聽(tīng)說(shuō)過(guò)。

第一份工作很重要，第二份、第三份和第四份工作也是如此。我認(rèn)為文理學(xué)院的畢業(yè)生對(duì)這種變化準(zhǔn)備得格外充分。如果你就讀的是專門培養(yǎng)技術(shù)工程師的學(xué)校，那么你所受到的訓(xùn)練就是為這一份工作做準(zhǔn)備。但是如果你就讀的學(xué)校教會(huì)你精通寫作，辯證思考，具備數(shù)量分析和推理能力，善于進(jìn)行團(tuán)隊(duì)合作，那么你就能適應(yīng)不同類型的工作。

University:What do liberal arts colleges’ students do after graduation?

President Rosenberg:They do everything. At Macalester, we have some disciplines where students go immediately into careers. Right now majors like mathematics and computer science are very popular. Economics is very popular. Many of those students go directly into jobs in fi nance and technology. My own major was English.If you major in English or history or philosophy, the career paths may not be as obvious. But our goal is to help every student develop the skills to be successful in their careers.

And it’s important to remember that jobs change. Many of the most important jobs today didn’t even exist 20 years ago, so our goal is not just to train students for their fi rst job, it’s to train them for their last job, and that means they’ll have the skills to adapt to change. The average person in the United States will change job four to six times during a career. We want to make sure that our graduates are prepared for all of the jobs they don’t even know about yet.

The fi rst job is important, but so is the second and third and fourth, and we think that liberal arts college graduates are particularly well-suited to adapt. If you go to a school to be, let’s say, a technology engineer, you’ll be trained to do that one thing. But if you go to a school where you learn how to write well and to think critically and to use quantities of reasoning and to work in teams, all of these things can be adapted to many different jobs.

《大學(xué)》：有觀點(diǎn)認(rèn)為文理學(xué)院是中產(chǎn)階級(jí)的“秘密俱樂(lè)部”，您同意這種看法嗎？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：我認(rèn)為對(duì)部分學(xué)生而言確實(shí)如此，對(duì)于一些要考慮上大學(xué)的十六七歲的學(xué)生，特別是那些經(jīng)濟(jì)上不屬于中產(chǎn)階級(jí)，有些甚至處于中低產(chǎn)階層的學(xué)生，他們對(duì)文理學(xué)院知之甚少。他們?cè)诟咧须A段沒(méi)有機(jī)會(huì)了解文理學(xué)院，因?yàn)槲睦韺W(xué)院的知名度沒(méi)有大型的研究型大學(xué)那么高。因此，對(duì)一些學(xué)生來(lái)說(shuō)，文理學(xué)院很神秘。這也是我們面臨的一個(gè)問(wèn)題。

我們希望更多學(xué)生能夠了解我們，知道我們提供的這種教育的好處，因此我們盡可能多地訪問(wèn)高中。但是，由于學(xué)校規(guī)模小，我們能做的工作就十分有限，因?yàn)槲覀儧](méi)有成百上千的招生工作人員，只有很小的招生隊(duì)伍。我們要讓學(xué)生知道，文理學(xué)院將有益于各個(gè)階層不同背景的學(xué)生，而不僅僅是中產(chǎn)階級(jí)和上層階級(jí)學(xué)生的選擇。

上大學(xué)的花費(fèi)取決于各個(gè)學(xué)校，在瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院，我們?yōu)閷W(xué)生提供多種財(cái)政資助。在瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院，80%的學(xué)生沒(méi)有支付全額學(xué)費(fèi)。當(dāng)我們錄取學(xué)生時(shí)，我們會(huì)提供足夠的助學(xué)金以充分滿足他們提出的經(jīng)濟(jì)需求，使他們能夠入學(xué)。如果學(xué)生只能支付20%的學(xué)費(fèi)，我們就提供足夠的財(cái)政資助來(lái)支付剩余的80%的費(fèi)用。

這就意味著有時(shí)候?qū)τ谀切┵Y源不多的學(xué)生，我們收的學(xué)費(fèi)比公立大學(xué)低，因?yàn)槲覀優(yōu)閷W(xué)生提供了大筆財(cái)政資助。但很多家庭對(duì)此并不了解。因此，我們需要告訴他們，讓他們知道可以選擇這種教育，這一點(diǎn)很重要。一些家庭看待大學(xué)的學(xué)費(fèi)時(shí)，就好像去商店只看商品的價(jià)格標(biāo)簽，然后就說(shuō)“我買不起”。但實(shí)際上，如果你支付不起這個(gè)價(jià)格，我們會(huì)打折。但很多人不明白這個(gè)道理，因?yàn)檫@很難理解，也有些復(fù)雜。在瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院，由于支付能力不同，每個(gè)人實(shí)際支付的學(xué)費(fèi)也有所不同。

University:It is said that liberal arts colleges are a kind of secret club for the middle class. How do you think about this?

President Rosenberg:I think there can be some truth to that, when you look at the 16- or 17-year-olds thinking about college, and particularly those who are below the middle class socioeconomically and have little knowledge of liberal arts colleges. Many of those students don’t have an opportunity to learn about this kind of college when they’re in high school, and liberal arts colleges aren’t as visible as big research universities. For some of those students, liberal arts colleges are a mystery. That’s a challenge for us.

We’d like more of those students to know about us—and the bene fi ts from the kind of education that we provide—so we try to visit as many high schools as we can. But there’s only so much a small college can do. We don’t have hundreds of people doing admissions work for us; we have a very small group. Liberal arts colleges can bene fi t students from all different backgrounds, not just middle or upper class. We want to make sure that students know that.

The cost of college depends on each school, and at a place like Macalester, we provide extensive fi nancial aid. About 80 percent of Macalester students pay less than the full price. When we admit students, we provide enough fi nancial aid to meet their full demonstrated economic need, so they can attend college. If you can only afford to pay 20 percent of our cost, we will provide enough fi nancial aid to cover the remaining 80 percent.

That means that sometimes, for students who don’t have a lot of resources, we are actually less expensive than public colleges because we provide so much fi nancial aid. That’s a story that a lot of families don’t know. It’s important for us to be able to tell that story, so they can realize that this kind of education is an option for them.Some families look at it like going to a store, looking at a price on a label, and saying, “I can’t afford that.” But the story is more complicated, because it is a price on a label, but we also put it on sale. We say that if you can’t afford to pay that price, we’ll charge you less, so you can have access to this. That’s dif fi cult to understand, and it’s a complicated message. At Macalester, everyone pays a different price based on ability to pay.

●我認(rèn)為追求卓越的最好方法是目標(biāo)明確，聚焦于一件事，然后把它做好。當(dāng)你同時(shí)關(guān)注十件事時(shí)，你很難將十件事都做好。文理學(xué)院和綜合性大學(xué)的區(qū)別在于，博雅教育是我們關(guān)注的全部，卻只是他們工作的一部分。一些大學(xué)也有文理學(xué)部，但那不是文理學(xué)院，他們有通識(shí)教育的元素，但卻缺少文理學(xué)院其他的元素。你不能指望將學(xué)生放在建筑物里就能使他們擁有教育經(jīng)歷。實(shí)施住宿制是為了給學(xué)生創(chuàng)造一個(gè)具有教育意義的居住環(huán)境。每一位瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院的員工都是一名教育者。每個(gè)人都用自己的方式教育學(xué)生。

《大學(xué)》：很多規(guī)模大的高校里也設(shè)置了一些文理學(xué)院，這是否對(duì)小型文理學(xué)院構(gòu)成了威脅？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：一些大型高校也設(shè)立了文理學(xué)部，這在一定程度上是承認(rèn)文理學(xué)院提供了最好的教育，因?yàn)樗麄冊(cè)谛Х挛覀?，他們是在不同的環(huán)境下嘗試我們的工作。

有些大型高校做得很好，區(qū)別在于像瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院這樣的文理學(xué)院只關(guān)注一件事，即給所有本科生提供可能是全世界最好的教育。而研究型大學(xué)關(guān)注很多事，他們有很多任務(wù)，他們還需要?jiǎng)?chuàng)造知識(shí)。在很多情況下，一些大學(xué)有5萬(wàn)多名在校生，擁有醫(yī)院、醫(yī)學(xué)院、法學(xué)院、商學(xué)院和工學(xué)院，需要關(guān)注的事情很多。我認(rèn)為追求卓越的最好方法是目標(biāo)明確，聚焦于一件事，然后把它做好。當(dāng)你同時(shí)關(guān)注十件事時(shí)，你很難將十件事都做好。

在我看來(lái)，文理學(xué)院和綜合性大學(xué)的區(qū)別在于，博雅教育是我們關(guān)注的全部，卻只是他們工作的一部分，他們對(duì)此付出的精力和注意力比我們少得多。比如，我非常敬重的明尼蘇達(dá)大學(xué)的校長(zhǎng)，他還必須得考慮醫(yī)院、政治等各種事務(wù)，我考慮的全都是如何教好本科生。

University:There are some small residential colleges created within many big universities. Is that a kind of threat to liberal arts colleges?

President Rosenberg:Some large universities have created small liberal arts divisions, too. In some ways,that’s recognizing that liberal arts colleges provide the best education, because they’re recreating what we do, just in a different institutional setting.

Some of those larger universities do it very well, but the difference is that a liberal arts college like Macalester is focused on one thing: providing undergraduates with the best possible education in the world.Research universities are focused on many things, with many different missions. They have the mission of producing original knowledge. In many cases, there are universities with 50,000 students as well as a hospital,medical school, law school, business school, and engineering school. They’re doing many things, and my view is that the best way to be excellent is to have a clear focus on one thing—and then do that very well. When you’re focused on 10 things, it’s harder to be excellent in all of them.

That’s the difference between a liberal arts college and a large university: a larger university is doing liberal arts as part of their work, but they don’t devote—in my view—as much of their energy and attention to that work as we do. At Macalester, it’s all we think about.

I know the president of the University of Minnesota, and I have a very high regard for him. He has to think about a hospital; he has to think about politics. All I think about is teaching undergraduates.

《大學(xué)》：但與此同時(shí)，在大型的大學(xué)里，學(xué)生有更多的選擇，因?yàn)樗麄兊膶W(xué)校更大，有更多的教師資源、課程和其他資源。

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：他們確實(shí)有更多的資源。事實(shí)是，比起只有2,000名學(xué)生的學(xué)校，一所擁有50,000名學(xué)生的學(xué)校確實(shí)能提供更多選擇，但是也有很多學(xué)生“淹沒(méi)”在里面。文理學(xué)院的師生比要高得多。在瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院，每10名學(xué)生就有一名全職教師。在大的綜合性大學(xué)，師生比則要低得多。盡管他們更有廣度，但我認(rèn)為我們更有深度。我們能夠?qū)Ｗ⒂诟〉恼n堂教學(xué)，師生聯(lián)系更緊密。我曾在兩所常春藤大學(xué)念過(guò)書。我曾經(jīng)在康奈爾大學(xué)讀本科，在哥倫比亞大學(xué)讀博士，我知道這類學(xué)校的很多課程由研究生講授，很多課堂的規(guī)模都很大。在我看來(lái)，我在這些地方接受的教育都還不夠好。在瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院，我們的課堂規(guī)模更小，每一門課程都是由專業(yè)的教師任教。我更愿意讓教授來(lái)教，而不是讓另外一個(gè)學(xué)生來(lái)教我。在大型的研究型大學(xué)，你往往和兩三百甚至四五百的學(xué)生坐在一間教室里，接受另外一名學(xué)生的教學(xué)。而如果一個(gè)課堂只有10或15人，且由教授親自教學(xué)，學(xué)習(xí)方式就會(huì)截然不同。

University:But at the same time, students have more choices since the universities are bigger and there are more faculty members, more curriculum and more resources.

President Rosenberg:They do have more choices. The fact is, an institution with 50,000 students is able to offer more options than one with 2,000 students. But a lot of students are drowning in that. The ratio of students to faculty is much smaller at liberal arts colleges. At Macalester College, for every 10 students, we have one fulltime faculty member. At a large university, that number is much bigger. Even though they have more width, I think we have more depth. We can focus on smaller classes and our faculty can work more closely with students. I was a student at two Ivy League universities. I went to Cornell University as an undergraduate and studied at Columbia University for my PhD, and in places like those, a lot of classes are very large and taught by graduate students. In my view, the education in that environment is not as good. At Macalester College, classes are smaller, and all of them are taught by professional faculty members. I’d rather be taught by a professor than by another student. In a larger research university you’re often taught by another student, in a room with 200 or 300 or 400 or 500 other students. You learn in a very different way when you’re in a room with 10 or 15 students and one professor.

《大學(xué)》：那么，和那些大型的研究型大學(xué)相比，文理學(xué)院的不足之處又是什么呢？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：第一，文理學(xué)院在經(jīng)濟(jì)上面臨更大的挑戰(zhàn)。當(dāng)學(xué)校規(guī)模更大的時(shí)候，可以產(chǎn)生某種規(guī)模經(jīng)濟(jì)效應(yīng)，這就使得經(jīng)營(yíng)小型院校面臨更大的挑戰(zhàn)。

第二，文理學(xué)院沒(méi)有研究型大學(xué)知名度高。常春藤盟校即便在中國(guó)都是人盡皆知。人們聽(tīng)說(shuō)這些學(xué)校是因?yàn)樗麄円?guī)模如此之大。但是，小學(xué)校很難有這種知名度。這使得規(guī)模小的學(xué)校在招生時(shí)就面臨更多挑戰(zhàn)。

第三，不是每位教授都喜歡小學(xué)校，我們需要爭(zhēng)取熱愛(ài)教學(xué)且致力于教學(xué)的教師。很多博士更喜歡做研究，對(duì)他們而言，研究型大學(xué)更有吸引力。所以有時(shí)候我們?cè)谂c研究型大學(xué)相互競(jìng)爭(zhēng)以吸引最好的教師時(shí)，面臨更大的困難，因?yàn)槲睦韺W(xué)院更注重教學(xué)。這也是一大挑戰(zhàn)，但是如果我們能找到合適的教師人選——真正熱愛(ài)教學(xué)的人選，我們就能取得引人注目的成績(jī)。

University:Well, then what’s the disadvantage for liberal arts colleges compared with those big universities?

President Rosenberg:First, the economics are more challenging. There are certain economies of scale when an institution is bigger, and running a small institution is more challenging.

Second, liberal arts colleges are not as visible as the research universities. It’s true even in China, where everyone has heard of the Ivy League schools. People know these schools because they’re so big. But when you’re small, it’s much harder to have that visibility. That creates more challenges for small schools in attracting students.

Third, not every professor wants to be at a small school. We have to get people who are dedicated to teaching. Some PhDs would rather focus on research, and for those people, a research university environment might be more attractive. Sometimes it’s a little bit harder for us to compete to attract the best faculty, because there’s more teaching in liberal arts colleges. That’s a challenge, but if we can fi nd the right faculty—the ones who really want to teach—then we think the results are outstanding.

《大學(xué)》：您認(rèn)為文理學(xué)院的博雅教育和一般大學(xué)所提倡的通識(shí)教育有什么區(qū)別？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：這個(gè)問(wèn)題問(wèn)得好。我認(rèn)為“博雅”是最難理解的術(shù)語(yǔ)之一，在美國(guó)教育體系中使用廣泛，意義多種多樣，使用方法也不同。有些大學(xué)傾向于使用“通識(shí)教育”，即提供不同學(xué)科領(lǐng)域的入門教學(xué)。這是博雅教育的一部分。

在我看來(lái)，通識(shí)教育和博雅教育不同。通識(shí)教育只是文理學(xué)院辦學(xué)使命和工作的一部分。通識(shí)教育的理念不是某一特定領(lǐng)域的教育而是更寬泛的教育，但是我們做的不限于此。文理學(xué)院的一些基本特征例如規(guī)模小和實(shí)施住宿制，使得師生之間可以密切交流，這對(duì)于其博雅教育非常重要。

美國(guó)文理學(xué)院規(guī)模小，實(shí)施住宿制，提供較為廣博的教育。一些大學(xué)也有文理學(xué)部，但那不是文理學(xué)院。因?yàn)檫@些學(xué)校規(guī)模很大，有很多在校生——他們有通識(shí)教育的元素，但卻缺少文理學(xué)院其他的元素。以“住宿制”這個(gè)元素為例，我們?yōu)閷W(xué)生提供的不僅是四年的教育——不僅是教室里的課堂經(jīng)歷——本質(zhì)上還是一種家的體驗(yàn)、一種生活體驗(yàn)。學(xué)生不僅在課堂內(nèi)學(xué)習(xí)，也在課堂外學(xué)習(xí)。他們向同學(xué)學(xué)習(xí)，從住校經(jīng)歷中學(xué)習(xí)，通過(guò)學(xué)生活動(dòng)、志愿者工作、社團(tuán)和體育活動(dòng)學(xué)習(xí)。

University:What’s the difference between a liberal arts education and general education?

President Rosenberg：It’s a very good question, because I think the term “l(fā)iberal arts” is one of most difficult to understand and most widely and variously used in American education, because they are used in different ways. Some colleges prefer to use the phrase “general education,” which provides you with an introduction to many different fi elds. That’s a part of the liberal arts.

There is a difference between general education, in my view, and the liberal arts education. The liberal arts college includes general education as a part of its mission and work. The idea of general education is not just education in a particular field, but a much broader education. But that’s not all we are. Other essential characteristics such as a small size and residential, so you can have close interactions between students and faculty,are very important.

American liberal arts colleges are small, residential and provide that broad education. Some universities have a college of liberal arts, but that’s not a liberal arts college because it’s large and there are lots of students on campus—it has the general education component, but not the rest. For example, the residential component:we provide students not just with an education for four years—not just the classroom experience—but basically a home, a living experience. The students learn not only inside the classroom but also outside the classroom. They learn from their classmates and their residential experience, through their student activities and their volunteer work, through their clubs and sports.

《大學(xué)》：實(shí)施住宿制是美國(guó)文理學(xué)院的典型特征之一。住宿經(jīng)歷何以使文理學(xué)院的教育有所不同？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：一天有24個(gè)小時(shí)，學(xué)生在課堂上的時(shí)間只有5到6個(gè)小時(shí)，或者更少，剩余的時(shí)間該怎么辦？這些時(shí)間如何用來(lái)促進(jìn)他們的教育？我們花了大量的時(shí)間來(lái)思考這個(gè)問(wèn)題。你不能指望將學(xué)生放在建筑物里就能使他們擁有教育經(jīng)歷。我們總是通過(guò)與他人一起生活來(lái)學(xué)習(xí)，但是課外活動(dòng)必須有計(jì)劃有目的性。我們不僅僅是讓學(xué)生住在一起。

學(xué)校有專門的部門，即“學(xué)生生活部”，他們主要關(guān)注學(xué)生在學(xué)術(shù)領(lǐng)域之外的所有生活。這些部門的工作者都在思考學(xué)生的教育。他們做大量的規(guī)劃設(shè)計(jì)工作，他們力圖為學(xué)生提供一種課堂上無(wú)法獲得的教育體驗(yàn)，例如:與不同的人進(jìn)行交流，給他人提供幫助，等等。有些活動(dòng)在課堂上很難實(shí)施，因此我們幫助學(xué)生在課外進(jìn)行。

我們每年都會(huì)給學(xué)生安排課外教育項(xiàng)目。我們邀請(qǐng)演講者到學(xué)校來(lái)，我們還有一百多個(gè)不同的學(xué)生組織。我們盡量組織——部分地而非完全地組織——學(xué)生的課外生活。這不僅對(duì)學(xué)生的學(xué)習(xí)有益，而且有助于實(shí)現(xiàn)學(xué)校的辦學(xué)使命。有些活動(dòng)是國(guó)際化的，有些是文化方面的，有些是服務(wù)性質(zhì)的。因此，這實(shí)際上不僅是居住，這更是規(guī)劃——實(shí)施住宿制是為了給學(xué)生創(chuàng)造一個(gè)具有教育意義的居住環(huán)境。

University:“Residential” is one of the typical characteristics of a liberal arts college. How does the residential experience make a difference?

President Rosenberg：There are 24 hours in a day, and students are in classes for fi ve or six of those hours(and maybe even less). What about the rest of the hours? How do those contribute to their education? We spend a lot of time thinking about that. You can’t just put students in a building and expect them to have an educational experience. You are always learning things from living with people. But there has to be a purpose for programming outside the classroom. We don’t just have students live together.

We have a department called Student Life that’s focused essentially on everything that goes on in the students’ lives outside the academic areas. The people who work in these areas all think about their education,and they do a tremendous amount of the programming. They try to provide another kind of education for students that they can’t get in the academic classroom: things like interacting with people who are different from you or what kind of service can help others. Some of these things are hard to do in class, so we help students outside the classroom think about those things.

Every year we organize educational programs outside the classroom for students. We bring in speakers,and we have over a hundred different student organizations. We try to organize—partially, not totally—their lives outside the classroom. That also contributes to their learning and supports the mission of the college. Some of it’s international, some is cultural, some is service. So it’s not just living, it is actually programming—it’s creating an educational living environment.

《大學(xué)》：就是說(shuō)課堂外的經(jīng)歷和課堂內(nèi)的經(jīng)歷同等重要，甚至更重要。這就意味著所有的教職員工實(shí)際上都肩負(fù)著教育者的角色？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：對(duì)。我們?cè)囍⒁环N意識(shí)，即每一位瑪卡萊斯特人都為同一個(gè)目標(biāo)奮斗，即，盡可能為學(xué)生提供最好的教育。在我看來(lái)，每一位瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院的員工都是一名教育者。每個(gè)人都用自己的方式教育學(xué)生。

例如，如果學(xué)校技術(shù)部門出現(xiàn)故障，其他工作就無(wú)法開(kāi)展。因此計(jì)算機(jī)管理員、住宿管理員、操場(chǎng)管理員都在用自己的方式推動(dòng)瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院的教育。我希望每個(gè)人都能參與其中。

University:So outside class experience is as important as classroom experience, even more important.Therefore, the administrators and the staff are also supposed to be educators in the college. Is that true?

President Rosenberg:Yes, we tried to create a sense that everyone at Macalester is all working toward the same aim and to the same goal, which is to provide the best possible education to the students. In my view,everyone working at Macalester College is an educator. Everyone is contributing in their own way to the educational experience of all students.

If the technology doesn't work, for example, then other things don’t work. The people who take care of computers, the people who take care of the residential resources, the people who take care of the grounds: they are all contributing in their own way. I want everyone to be that part of work.

●在某種程度上，文理學(xué)院對(duì)教師的要求是最高的，因?yàn)樗麄兗纫蔀閮?yōu)秀的教師，又得成為優(yōu)秀的研究者，還要為社會(huì)提供服務(wù)。在文理學(xué)院當(dāng)教師確實(shí)很難，但是如果你給他們提供適當(dāng)?shù)闹С?，他們還是很可能獲得成功，大多數(shù)也確實(shí)都成功了。大多數(shù)教師獲得終身教職后繼續(xù)研究并帶動(dòng)學(xué)生進(jìn)行研究，這是也文理學(xué)院的另一優(yōu)勢(shì)。最重要的是聘請(qǐng)到正確的人。這絕不是僅僅看成績(jī)單或者推薦信那么簡(jiǎn)單，而是要去發(fā)掘熱愛(ài)這份工作、能夠從中獲得發(fā)展和成功，并且喜愛(ài)這種環(huán)境的人。

《大學(xué)》：文理學(xué)院歷來(lái)強(qiáng)調(diào)本科教育，您怎樣看待研究與教學(xué)的關(guān)系？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：這是一個(gè)動(dòng)態(tài)的過(guò)程，但我認(rèn)為這二者之間大體上保持平衡比較好。大多數(shù)教師會(huì)說(shuō)他們的確喜歡這種教學(xué)和研究之間的平衡。兩者都很必要，相互促進(jìn)。任何一方單獨(dú)存在都是不完善的。但凡認(rèn)為教學(xué)和研究可以獨(dú)立存在的教師，要么可以去主要關(guān)注研究的研究型大學(xué)工作，要么可以去幾乎完全強(qiáng)調(diào)教學(xué)的社區(qū)學(xué)院工作。在文理學(xué)院，兩者缺一不可。

瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院的教授非常擅長(zhǎng)教學(xué)，但是僅僅擅長(zhǎng)教學(xué)或者僅僅擅長(zhǎng)科研都是不夠的。教學(xué)和研究都得優(yōu)秀。如果僅擅長(zhǎng)研究，而不擅長(zhǎng)教學(xué)，也將無(wú)法獲得晉升。這是為什么教師總感覺(jué)有壓力。這確實(shí)很難，這是一個(gè)問(wèn)題。

University:Liberal arts colleges are always focused on undergraduate education. What do you think of the relationship between teaching and research?

President Rosenberg:It’s always a work in progress, but I think the balance largely is good. I think most of our faculty members would say that they really like the way teaching and research are balanced. Both pieces are necessary; one is helping the other. Neither is seen as being ideal by itself, and if faculty members think that one can exist completely without the other, they should probably be at a different kind of institution—either research universities with the focus almost entirely on research or maybe community colleges with their emphasis almost entirely on teaching. The liberal arts college is what they come together.

Macalester professors are very good at teaching. But it’s not enough to be good in either teaching or research. You need to be good at both. If you are very good at research but your teaching is not very good, you cannot get the promotion. That’s why faculty always feel pressure—that’s really dif fi cult, and that’s a problem.

《大學(xué)》：文理學(xué)院如何評(píng)價(jià)教師的教學(xué)？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：我們會(huì)詢問(wèn)在這里上課的學(xué)生，問(wèn)他們?nèi)绾慰创?jīng)上過(guò)的課程。我們有大量來(lái)自學(xué)生和教師同事的證據(jù)，再加上教師的教學(xué)大綱，以及教師對(duì)自己教學(xué)的反思。終身職軌的教師在入職六年后進(jìn)行終身教職評(píng)審。因此，我們有6年的數(shù)據(jù)，評(píng)審時(shí)間則要花好幾個(gè)月。因此，教師要經(jīng)過(guò)所在系的評(píng)審，然后由選舉出的教職工委員會(huì)——教師人事委員會(huì)——進(jìn)行評(píng)審。

University:How is teaching evaluated in liberal arts colleges?

President Rosenberg:We look at students who are taking their classes, and we ask what they think of the class. We have a large body of evidence from students and a professor’s colleagues, as well as a professor’s syllabi and their own re fl ections about their teaching. We evaluate people for tenure after six years, so we have six years of evidence. Then the review process takes a few months. You can be reviewed by your own department, then by an elected committee of the faculty called the faculty personnel committee.

《大學(xué)》：文理學(xué)院的一些教師認(rèn)為，他們既要成為優(yōu)秀的教師，還要應(yīng)對(duì)較高的研究要求，壓力太大。作為校長(zhǎng)，您怎么看？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：我認(rèn)為他們的工作量確實(shí)很重。在某種程度上，文理學(xué)院對(duì)教師的要求是最高的，因?yàn)樗麄兗纫蔀閮?yōu)秀的教師，又得成為優(yōu)秀的研究者，還要為社會(huì)提供服務(wù)。而在研究型大學(xué)，教學(xué)不是最重要的，你可以因?yàn)槟愕难芯揩@得終身教職，也可以因?yàn)槟愕难芯慷鵁o(wú)法獲得終身教職。但是在類似瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院這樣的學(xué)校，教師必須各方面優(yōu)秀，這給廣大教師尤其是年輕教師帶來(lái)了很多工作和很大的壓力。

因此我們努力減輕這種壓力，盡力給教師提供指導(dǎo)，資助他們的研究，給他們做研究的時(shí)間，例如學(xué)術(shù)休假。我們盡力為他們提供持續(xù)的培訓(xùn)及指導(dǎo)和各種支持，這樣做的結(jié)果就是，大多數(shù)教師都獲得了終身教職，在瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院有80%到90%的終身職軌上的教師獲得終身教職。在文理學(xué)院當(dāng)教師確實(shí)很難，但是如果你給他們提供適當(dāng)?shù)闹С?，他們還是很可能獲得成功，大多數(shù)也確實(shí)都成功了。如果不給他們適當(dāng)?shù)闹С郑Y(jié)果將會(huì)大不相同。

我們學(xué)校設(shè)立了教學(xué)學(xué)術(shù)中心，在這里與教職工討論如何教學(xué)等教學(xué)法問(wèn)題、與研究相關(guān)的問(wèn)題，以及如何適應(yīng)文理學(xué)院的工作等問(wèn)題。每一年，我都和所有新進(jìn)教師碰面，了解他們的需求。我們給他們提供大量的繼續(xù)教育，指導(dǎo)他們?nèi)绾卧诂斂ㄈR斯特學(xué)院這樣的地方獲得成功。這都是我們要做的事。他們需要得到所在系的支持，需要優(yōu)秀同事幫助其理解如何成為一名成功的教師，需要所有這些條件。我們通過(guò)共同努力確保每一位教師都成功。

University:Some faculty think that the research load at liberal arts colleges is too heavy since they are supposed to be great teachers. What do you think about this phenomenon as a president?

President Rosenberg:I think it’s a very heavy load. In some ways, the demands on the faculty at liberal arts colleges are the hardest of all, because they’re expected to be great teachers and great researchers, and to provide service to the community. At a research university, where teaching is less important, you’ll get tenure (or not get tenure) on the basis of your research. But at a place like Macalester College, you have to be good at everything,and I think that creates a lot of work and a lot of pressure on young faculty.

We try to do what we can to relieve that pressure. We provide faculty with mentoring, with funding for their research, with time to do their research. They get a sabbatical tenure to do the research. We try to provide them with training all along the way. The result is that most faculty members get tenure: I would say 80 to 90 percent of faculty members who stand for tenure at Macalester get it. It's hard, but if you provide professors with the right support, then it is very possible for them to fi nd success. Most of them are successful. If you don’t provide them with right support, you will get a different result.

We have something called Center for Scholarship and Teaching, and we have many sessions where we talk with faculty about how to teach, research issues, what means to be at a liberal arts college. Every year I meet with all of the new faculty. We provide them with a lot of continuing education and how to be successful at a place like Macalester. You need good support from your department and your colleagues to help you understand how to be successful. So you need all of those things together. It’s a communal effort to make sure the professors are successful.

《大學(xué)》：有觀點(diǎn)認(rèn)為文理學(xué)院的教授在得到終身教職后就停止了研究，真的是這樣嗎？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：不，我覺(jué)得不是。我是終身教職委員會(huì)的成員，負(fù)責(zé)對(duì)每位教師進(jìn)行評(píng)審。終身教職評(píng)審主要看教師三方面的工作，包括教學(xué)、研究和服務(wù)，包括社會(huì)服務(wù)和對(duì)大學(xué)的服務(wù)。教學(xué)是最重要的，研究次之。我們希望文理學(xué)院的教師是教學(xué)專家，在這方面文理學(xué)院堪稱模范。我們認(rèn)為他們需要成為優(yōu)秀的教師，也需要在各自的學(xué)科領(lǐng)域里積極開(kāi)展研究。如果你準(zhǔn)備教授化學(xué)，你需要了解化學(xué)領(lǐng)域的研究進(jìn)展，最好的方法就是成為一名活躍的研究者。我們希望教學(xué)和研究并重。

大學(xué)教師獲得終身教職后，很容易停止研究，因?yàn)榻K身教職能夠?yàn)槠渎殬I(yè)生涯提供保障。但是根據(jù)我的經(jīng)驗(yàn)，大多數(shù)教師都繼續(xù)進(jìn)行研究，因?yàn)樗麄儫釔?ài)研究。這也是他們選擇這份職業(yè)的原因所在。無(wú)論是作為一名化學(xué)家、心理學(xué)家，還是數(shù)學(xué)家，大多數(shù)教師都不愿意放棄研究，他們會(huì)繼續(xù)研究下去。

因此，大多數(shù)教師繼續(xù)研究并帶動(dòng)學(xué)生進(jìn)行研究，這是也文理學(xué)院的另一優(yōu)勢(shì)。如果你是一名大型研究型大學(xué)里化學(xué)專業(yè)的本科生，你一般沒(méi)有機(jī)會(huì)與最好的教師直接合作研究，最可能跟教師一起開(kāi)展研究的是研究生。而文理學(xué)院的教師和學(xué)生經(jīng)常合著論文，一起參加專業(yè)會(huì)議并做報(bào)告。這對(duì)于本科生是一個(gè)機(jī)會(huì)，可以很早就參與到高水平的學(xué)術(shù)研究中，同時(shí)這也是一個(gè)優(yōu)勢(shì)，有利于他們考取研究生院，因?yàn)樗麄冇懈嗟膶W(xué)術(shù)研究經(jīng)歷。文理學(xué)院畢業(yè)生去研究生院的比例更高，比綜合性大學(xué)高得多。我認(rèn)為這是因?yàn)樗麄冊(cè)诒究齐A段就有更多的機(jī)會(huì)去做研究。

University:Some people say that for the professors in liberal arts colleges, their research discontinues when they get the tenure, is that true?

President Rosenberg:No, I don’t think it is. I am part of the tenure committee, so I review every faculty member. When we review faculty for the tenure, we look at three categories of work: teaching, research, and service. I would say that teaching is the most important, but right behind teaching is research. We expect faculty at liberal arts colleges to be teacher-scholars, and that’s the model. We believe that they need to be great teachers but also active in discipline. If you are going to teach chemistry, you need to know what’s going on in the fi eld and the best way to do that is to be an active researcher yourself. We expect both.

When you get tenure, certainly it is easier if you choose to stop doing research, because the central tenure guarantees your position for the rest of your career. But my experience has been that most faculty members continue their research, because they love it. That’s why they choose their profession. As a chemist, a psychologist,or a mathematician, most people don’t want to stop. They want to continue doing it.

So most do and most of them, certainly in the sciences, involve student in their research, which is another advantage of the liberal arts college. If you are a chemistry student at big research university, you will not have the opportunity to do research with the best faculty—the graduate students do. If you are a chemistry student at Macalester，you will have the opportunity to work directly in research with faculty members. They are all undergraduates and so very often our faculty or our students will co-author papers and co-offer presentations at professional conferences. It’s an opportunity to do research at a very high level at very early point in an academic career, which gives you an advantage when you go on to graduate school, because you have more experience of doing that. And it’s liberal arts colleges that send the highest percentage of students to graduate school on sciences, much higher than big universities. And I think it is because they have the opportunities to do research as undergraduates.

《大學(xué)》：除了為教師提供研究資金和時(shí)間，文理學(xué)院如何使教師保持教學(xué)與科研之間的平衡？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：在我看來(lái)，最重要的是聘請(qǐng)到正確的人。每個(gè)人的喜好都不一樣。對(duì)每份工作而言，最大的挑戰(zhàn)就是找到一個(gè)由衷喜愛(ài)這份工作的人。你需要熱愛(ài)自己的工作，才能做好這份工作。我們招聘人才就是要找到熱愛(ài)這份工作的人。整個(gè)招聘過(guò)程要看兩三百名申請(qǐng)者的申請(qǐng)信，最終才聘到合適的人。這絕不是僅僅看成績(jī)單或者推薦信那么簡(jiǎn)單，而是要去發(fā)掘熱愛(ài)這份工作、能夠從中獲得發(fā)展和成功，并且喜愛(ài)這種環(huán)境的人。

同樣的環(huán)境并非對(duì)每一位教師都是理想的。這是相互匹配的問(wèn)題，就像學(xué)生要選擇適合自己的大學(xué)一樣。這就像有些人喜歡生活在城市，有些人喜歡居住在鄉(xiāng)村。對(duì)于不同的人，面對(duì)同樣的環(huán)境，有的人會(huì)開(kāi)心，有的人不開(kāi)心，這取決于他們看重什么。

University:What plays the important role in keeping the balance of research and teaching for faculty members besides funding and time for research in liberal arts coueges?

President Rosenberg:For me, the most important thing is hiring the right people. For every job, the challenge is to fi nd a person who really embraces the nature of that job. You need to love your work and then you’ll do it very well. Our job is to find people who would love this work and that is a process of looking at those two or three hundred applicants before hiring someone. It’s more than looking at a transcript or looking at recommendations. It’s really asking who will love this work and thrive with this work, someone who wants this kind of environment.

The same environment is not ideal for every faculty member. It’s about making the right match, just as we emphasize students looking for a college. It’s like that some people love living in a city and some love living in the country. You could have the same environment, and different people would be happy or not happy depending upon what’s important to them.

《大學(xué)》：看來(lái)招到合適的人對(duì)于文理學(xué)院的發(fā)展很重要，那么文理學(xué)院是如何聘到合適的教師呢？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：這是一個(gè)費(fèi)力的過(guò)程。以歷史學(xué)科為例，當(dāng)我們發(fā)出教師崗位招聘廣告后，我們可能會(huì)收到兩三百封應(yīng)聘信。我們有一個(gè)專門的招聘委員會(huì)審閱這些崗位申請(qǐng)，一步一步地篩選，然后對(duì)通過(guò)篩選的人員進(jìn)行面試，最后再選出三到四人到學(xué)校參加面試。這是個(gè)審慎同時(shí)也非常耗時(shí)費(fèi)力的過(guò)程，需要考察很多的申請(qǐng)者，經(jīng)歷漫長(zhǎng)的過(guò)程，因此最終通過(guò)篩選留下來(lái)工作的都是非常出色的人選。

University:How do liberal arts colleges hire the right people?

President Rosenberg:It's a very exhaustive process. Typically, in a fi eld like history, when we advertise for a faculty position, we might have two or three hundred people apply for one position. And so we have a committee,that reviews all of our applications and narrow them down. Then people are interviewed and then typically the fi nal step means bringing three or four to campus. It's a very time-consuming and careful process. Typically the people who get through of all of that will be outstanding.

《大學(xué)》：您認(rèn)為文理學(xué)院最吸引這些崗位申請(qǐng)者的是什么？學(xué)校如何吸引最優(yōu)秀的合適人選？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：我認(rèn)為我們所能提供的最好的是學(xué)生?，斂ㄈR斯特學(xué)院的學(xué)生都是非常棒的。得天下英才而教之，是對(duì)教師最大的獎(jiǎng)賞。我們最好的招聘“工具”就是我們的學(xué)生，因?yàn)樗麄兌挤浅?yōu)秀。應(yīng)聘者來(lái)到我們的學(xué)校和學(xué)生見(jiàn)面后會(huì)說(shuō)“我想教他們，因?yàn)樗麄兒苈斆饕埠芊e極主動(dòng)”，這有助于我們的招聘工作。正如我之前提到的，我們給教職工提供各種支持，包括學(xué)術(shù)休假、研究資金等，這些都很重要，但我認(rèn)為最終一位教師是否愿意來(lái)這個(gè)學(xué)校主要是看是否有機(jī)會(huì)能教優(yōu)秀的學(xué)生，這才是我們最大的吸引力。

University:What do you think is the most attractive for those people, and how do you attract the right people?

President Rosenberg:I think the best thing we have to offer is our students. Our students at Macalester College are extraordinarily strong. If you are a teacher, there’s nothing as rewarding as having great students. The best recruiting tool we have at Macalester is our students because they are so good. People come in and meet our students and they say, “I want to teach them, because they are so smart and they are so motivated,” and that helps us recruit. Other things are important—as I mentioned earlier, the support we provide such as the sabbatical time and research funding—but at the end of the day, whether people want to be at a college depends on whether they have a chance to teach great students. That’s our best recruiting tool.

●大學(xué)最難的一件事就是定義質(zhì)量并衡量教育成果，但是我們不能因此置之不理。收入的多少不是衡量職業(yè)成功的唯一方式。我覺(jué)得我們應(yīng)該一直努力讓明天比今天做得更好。我們應(yīng)該能從自己擅長(zhǎng)的事中獲得成就感和愉悅感，這也是瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院一直所希望的。

《大學(xué)》：如您所說(shuō)，學(xué)術(shù)卓越是最重要的，如何判斷文理學(xué)院的辦學(xué)質(zhì)量？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：這是一個(gè)很好的問(wèn)題。我認(rèn)為大學(xué)最難的一件事就是定義質(zhì)量并衡量教育成果。我們?cè)谶@方面做得越來(lái)越好，但是仍不夠好，部分原因在于我們的“產(chǎn)品”是人。如果我們生產(chǎn)的是汽車或者手機(jī)，就很容易衡量產(chǎn)品的質(zhì)量，因?yàn)槟阒朗謾C(jī)和汽車能否用。當(dāng)你的產(chǎn)品是受過(guò)教育的人，你如何衡量？很難衡量。大學(xué)很難做好這點(diǎn)，但是我們不能因此置之不理。

那么我們?nèi)绾沃雷约捍_實(shí)做得不錯(cuò)呢？瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院并沒(méi)有什么獨(dú)特的做法。我們很仔細(xì)地評(píng)估學(xué)生的能力，在學(xué)生進(jìn)校和離校的時(shí)候分別測(cè)試其寫作能力，看他們的寫作是否有所提高？答案是肯定的，他們確實(shí)有所提高。此外，我們還有通識(shí)教育要求，包括寫作要求、數(shù)量推理要求、語(yǔ)言要求，國(guó)際化要求及多元文化要求，在每一方面我們都試圖建立評(píng)價(jià)標(biāo)準(zhǔn)來(lái)檢測(cè)這些要求對(duì)學(xué)生是否有益。

我們還嘗試另一種方法來(lái)衡量學(xué)校質(zhì)量，即關(guān)注畢業(yè)率。多少學(xué)生進(jìn)校后按時(shí)畢業(yè)？瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院有90%的學(xué)生按時(shí)畢業(yè)，畢業(yè)率很高。但是美國(guó)很多大學(xué)生不能畢業(yè)，這是美國(guó)教育的一個(gè)大問(wèn)題，存在大量浪費(fèi)，包括金錢、人力資源、時(shí)間和機(jī)會(huì)的浪費(fèi)。

同時(shí)我們還觀察學(xué)生，看他們是否滿意瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院的指導(dǎo)，結(jié)果發(fā)現(xiàn)絕大多數(shù)都很滿意。比如，對(duì)于理科學(xué)生，我們了解多少學(xué)生畢業(yè)后進(jìn)入研究生院，他們考入什么學(xué)校？多少學(xué)生選擇醫(yī)學(xué)院？多少學(xué)生進(jìn)入自己心儀的學(xué)校？我們也關(guān)注這些結(jié)果。不存在哪一種衡量標(biāo)準(zhǔn)就足以定義學(xué)術(shù)卓越。但是我們?cè)囍占鞣N標(biāo)準(zhǔn)，有些是可以量化的，有些則不能量化。

我們是否取得了理想的結(jié)果？我的回答一直都是我們做得還不夠好。我覺(jué)得我們應(yīng)該一直努力讓明天比今天做得更好。我們應(yīng)該能從自己擅長(zhǎng)的事中獲得成就感和愉悅感，這也是瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院一直所希望的。我曾經(jīng)是英文教授，我最喜歡的詩(shī)人是羅伯特·布朗寧，他的詩(shī)中有這樣一句話“人應(yīng)該超越自己”。我喜歡這種理念，不要滿足于現(xiàn)狀，要不斷超越自己，因?yàn)檫@意味著你總是努力做得更好。我想這是做每件事都應(yīng)該持有的態(tài)度。你總是想著做得更好，大學(xué)也應(yīng)該如此。如果沾沾自喜，就會(huì)越來(lái)越糟。

University:As you said, academic excellence is the most important thing. How do you de fi ne the quality of a liberal arts college?

President Rosenberg:That is a great question. One of the hardest challenges for colleges is to de fi ne what quality means and measure outcomes. We’ve gotten better at it, but we are still not very good at it. Part of it is that our product is people. If you are producing automobiles or phones, it’s much easier to measure the quality. You know the phone works; you know the car works. When what you are producing is educated people, how do you measure that? It’s hard to measure, so colleges have never been very good at that. But that shouldn’t let us off the hook.

How do we know how well we are doing? What we do at Macalester College is not so unique. We do a pretty careful assessment of students’ ability. We test students’ writing ability when they arrive, and then we test their writing ability on the way out. Are they writing better? And the answer is yes, they are. We have set the general education requirements, and there are writing, quantity reasoning, and language requirements. And then there is an internationalism and multicultural requirement. In each of these areas, we try to develop assessment tools to determine whether these requirements actually help students.

That’s one way of determining whether we are, in fact, providing academic excellence. We also try to measure it by looking at our graduation rate. How many students graduated on time? At Macalester, it’s 90 percent. That is very high. Across the United States, a very, very high percentage of students don’t graduate from college. That’s a big problem in the US, and there are numerous wastes of money and human resources, time and opportunities.

We also survey students to see if they are satis fi ed with the guidance from Macalester, and overwhelmingly we see they are. For science students, we look how many of them go to graduate school. What school do they get into? How many of them get into medical school? How many get into the school they want? We look at those outcomes, too. There is no one measure that by itself can define academic excellence. But we try to collect a variety of measures, some of which are quanti fi able, some of which are not.

Are we getting the results we want? My view is that the answer should always be that we are not good enough. I think we should always strive to be better tomorrow than we are today. We should take satisfaction and pleasure in the things you do well, and we should also aspire. I used to be an English professor, and one of my favorite poets in English is Robert Browning. There is a line in one of his poems that says, “A man’s reach should exceed his grasp.” I like the notion that you should always reach for something that is beyond what you can grasp because that means you are trying to be better. And I think every business should have that attitude—and colleges should have the attitude. If you get complacent, you’ll probably get worse.

《大學(xué)》：有哪些評(píng)估工具可以用來(lái)衡量文理學(xué)院的辦學(xué)質(zhì)量？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：不同的機(jī)構(gòu)研制了不同的評(píng)估工具，有聯(lián)邦政府制定的評(píng)估方法，也有專業(yè)的認(rèn)證機(jī)構(gòu)進(jìn)行的評(píng)估，學(xué)校還有自己開(kāi)發(fā)的一些評(píng)估工具。

美國(guó)聯(lián)邦政府開(kāi)發(fā)了一些衡量標(biāo)準(zhǔn)。現(xiàn)在他們創(chuàng)造了一種院校計(jì)分卡，你可以在教育部的網(wǎng)站上找到這種卡。他們統(tǒng)計(jì)美國(guó)每一所大學(xué)或?qū)W院的學(xué)生畢業(yè)率及畢業(yè)生的平均收入水平。

但我認(rèn)為這些標(biāo)準(zhǔn)的作用是有限的，因?yàn)檫@些標(biāo)準(zhǔn)不夠細(xì)。它們并沒(méi)有體現(xiàn)學(xué)生學(xué)到了多少，只是體現(xiàn)了學(xué)生掙了多少錢。能掙多少錢主要由他所學(xué)的專業(yè)決定的，而不是取決于他學(xué)得有多好，比如學(xué)工科通常就比學(xué)英語(yǔ)要掙得多。這是顯而易見(jiàn)的道理。有些學(xué)生想學(xué)習(xí)英語(yǔ)，想成為英語(yǔ)教師，這并不意味著他們不成功。在蘋果公司工作的學(xué)生只是選擇了不同的職業(yè)而已。收入的多少不是衡量職業(yè)成功的唯一方式。

美國(guó)的每所大學(xué)都需要通過(guò)認(rèn)證機(jī)構(gòu)認(rèn)證。他們通過(guò)各種標(biāo)準(zhǔn)和指標(biāo)來(lái)判斷你是否做到了你所宣稱的那樣。我們學(xué)校通過(guò)了這項(xiàng)十年一次的評(píng)估和認(rèn)證過(guò)程。

此外，我們學(xué)校自己也制定了一些重要的評(píng)估工具，衡量學(xué)生是否學(xué)會(huì)了寫作，是否懂得如何運(yùn)用數(shù)字，是否具備了批判性思維能力，等等。

University:What kinds of assessment tools are used to evaluate the quality of liberal arts colleges?

President Rosenberg:There are various assessments developed by different institutions. There are assessments by the federal government, there are accreditation agencies to assess the colleges, and the colleges themselves develop some assessment tools.

The federal government in the US is developing some tools. They now have created what they called College Scorecard and you can fi nd it on the Department of Education website. For every college or university in the US, you can see the percentage of students that graduate and the average income level after graduation for those students.

But I think those tools are of limited use. They don’t really tell you how much students learned; they tell you how much money students are making. How much money you make is more determined by what you study: if you study engineering, you’re generally going to earn more than if you study English. We don’t need a lot of tools to tell us that. Some students want to study English and be an English teacher—that does not mean they are not successful. Students working at Apple simply have a different profession. Financial tools are not the only way to measure success in a profession.

Every college in the US has to be accredited by the accreditation agencies. They look at different measures to see if you are doing what you claim to be doing. We pass that assessment and the accreditation processes, which happen every ten years.

We also develop important tools ourselves to determine whether students are doing things like learning how to write, learning how to use numbers, and learning critical thinking skills.

《大學(xué)》：根據(jù)貴校的學(xué)生滿意度調(diào)查，您認(rèn)為目前文理學(xué)院在哪些方面還做得不夠好？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：就瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院而言，我們的學(xué)生在學(xué)校所期待的、與學(xué)校使命一致的那些方面做得很好，尤其是與其他學(xué)校的學(xué)生相比?，斂ㄈR斯特學(xué)院的學(xué)生認(rèn)為學(xué)校的生活使他們更了解其他文化，更有能力和與自己不同的人進(jìn)行交流，更加致力于為他人服務(wù)。

或許瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院的學(xué)生的學(xué)習(xí)動(dòng)機(jī)不是來(lái)自經(jīng)濟(jì)層面的考慮，這與其他學(xué)校的學(xué)生不同。有時(shí)，當(dāng)我們問(wèn)他們“什么對(duì)你最重要？”我們必須得促使他們認(rèn)識(shí)到經(jīng)濟(jì)上成功也是很好的。你可以在經(jīng)濟(jì)上很富裕，你也可以致力于讓世界變得更美好，這二者并不沖突。我認(rèn)為，在經(jīng)濟(jì)危機(jī)之后的幾年中確實(shí)如此，學(xué)生們更加意識(shí)到經(jīng)濟(jì)保障的重要性。就業(yè)市場(chǎng)因?yàn)榻?jīng)濟(jì)衰退非常暗淡，因此學(xué)生更加意識(shí)到經(jīng)濟(jì)穩(wěn)定是保證，是需要考慮的問(wèn)題。家長(zhǎng)會(huì)關(guān)心這個(gè)問(wèn)題，但學(xué)生有時(shí)關(guān)心，有時(shí)卻不關(guān)心。

University:According to the satisfaction survey in your college, at what aspect you are not very good till now?

President Rosenberg:Where we think our students are doing best, particularly relative to students from other colleges, is in areas that consistent with our mission. Macalester students said they developed greater understanding of other cultures. They have developed a better ability to interact with people who are different from them, and they have developed a stronger commitment to service to others.

Maybe Macalester students are generally not as financially motivated as students from other schools.Sometimes, if we ask them what’s most important to them, you have to push them to realize that it’s okay to be fi nancially successful. You can be fi nancially successful and still be committed to making the world a better place—they’re not mutually exclusive. In the last few years since the great recession, though, students have become more aware of the importance of financial security. The job market got so difficult because of the economic disruption, so students became more aware of the fact that fi nancial security is something we need to think about. The parents think about it, but students sometimes do and sometimes not as much.

●盡管我們學(xué)校不大，但還是必須盡力打破一些隔閡。這很難，但是通過(guò)這些活動(dòng)讓大家聚起來(lái)，讓每個(gè)成員都理解學(xué)校的辦學(xué)目標(biāo)和使命，非常重要。從大學(xué)產(chǎn)生的那一刻起，辦學(xué)的目標(biāo)之一就是建一個(gè)充滿活力的學(xué)習(xí)生活社區(qū)。我認(rèn)為小型院校現(xiàn)在依然如此，也尤其如此。

《大學(xué)》：您在前面提到管理者和教輔人員也都是學(xué)院的教育者，怎樣才能使不同部門的教職員工齊心協(xié)力，共同實(shí)現(xiàn)大學(xué)的教育使命？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：首先，我率先做出榜樣，尊重所有領(lǐng)域的員工。其次，花時(shí)間將大家團(tuán)結(jié)在一起，這很重要。因此，每個(gè)學(xué)期我們都會(huì)有幾次機(jī)會(huì)讓大家集中在一起來(lái)慶祝我們?cè)诂斂ㄈR斯特學(xué)院的工作。例如，我們有教職工答謝午餐將所有人聚集到一起。春天我們也聚會(huì)。我們還有一個(gè)假日派對(duì)。每年我們都會(huì)有幾次聚會(huì)，讓大家感受到自己是整個(gè)大家庭中的一員。

盡管我們學(xué)校不大，但還是必須盡力打破一些隔閡。這很難，但是通過(guò)這些活動(dòng)讓大家聚起來(lái)，讓每個(gè)成員都理解學(xué)校的辦學(xué)目標(biāo)和使命，非常重要。也正因?yàn)橐?guī)模足夠小，我們可以讓大家一次都能聚齊，倘若有2萬(wàn)或3萬(wàn)員工，是做不到這一點(diǎn)的。

University:How do you make people in different departments work together for the same goal of the college?

President Rosenberg:First of all, I try to set an example of showing respect for all of those people in all of those areas. Second, I also think it’s important to have times when you bring everybody together. Several times each semester, we will have an event to bring everybody together and to celebrate what we do at Macalester. For instance, we have a faculty and staff appreciation lunch when we will bring everybody together. We do the same thing in the spring. We have a holiday party. Several times during the year we try to bring everybody together so that everyone feels part of the same community.

Though we are not a large college, you still have to work to try to break down barriers. It’s not easy, but I think having those events for everybody to come together, and making sure that everybody understands the mission is really important. We are small enough so we can get everybody together at once. If you are in a place that has 20,000 or 30,000 employees, you can’t do that.

《大學(xué)》：是不是在規(guī)模小的高校里更容易形成“共同體氛圍”？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：一般而言，規(guī)模小的文理學(xué)院不斷嘗試?yán)靡?guī)模小的優(yōu)勢(shì)來(lái)形成共同體氛圍。有些學(xué)校比其他學(xué)校做得更好一些，我認(rèn)為瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院在這方面尤其出色，營(yíng)造出了大家同舟共濟(jì)的氛圍。這在一些大學(xué)就不大可能，因?yàn)樗鼈兊囊?guī)模太大。這就如同在小公司和大公司工作有所差別一樣，小公司的員工更容易混熟，為同一個(gè)目標(biāo)努力，而在大公司要這樣做就很難，也許不是不可能，只是更難。

University:Is it easier to build a sense of community in small colleges?

President Rosenberg:I think generally small liberal arts colleges try very hard to take advantage of their smallness and create a sense of community. Some can do that better than others, and I’d like to think that Macalester does that particularly well, creating the thought that we’re all in this together. For some places like universities it’s impossible, because they’re just too big. That’s like the difference between working at a very large company and at a small company: it’s much easier in a small company for everybody to know everyone else and for people to feel like they’re part of the same work. When an organization is larger, it’s harder—maybe not impossible, but harder.

《大學(xué)》：您是在努力營(yíng)造一種“共同體氛圍”，作為文理學(xué)院的一種重要文化？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：是的。我想從大學(xué)產(chǎn)生的那一刻起，辦學(xué)的目標(biāo)之一就是建一個(gè)充滿活力的學(xué)習(xí)生活社區(qū)。我認(rèn)為小型院校現(xiàn)在依然如此，也尤其如此。這從小型院校的校友聯(lián)系更加密切就可見(jiàn)一斑：他們感覺(jué)自己更像一個(gè)俱樂(lè)部或者是一個(gè)家庭的成員。我認(rèn)為，比起規(guī)模大的學(xué)校，小型院校更容易讓人有這種感覺(jué)。而在我兒子就讀的密歇根大學(xué)，他們擁有大約35萬(wàn)名校友，而我們只有3萬(wàn)校友，更容易建立一種家庭歸屬感。

與規(guī)模大的高校相比，在小型學(xué)院工作的另一個(gè)優(yōu)勢(shì)就是，教職工更容易接觸到其他系科的人，譬如，如果一個(gè)英語(yǔ)系有50名教師，那么很有可能的是，你幾乎所有時(shí)間都在和其他英語(yǔ)教授打交道。而在瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院，英語(yǔ)系或許只有10個(gè)人，你更有可能接觸到其他系科的人，而且你們之間不僅是學(xué)術(shù)交流，還有社會(huì)交往。我們鼓勵(lì)團(tuán)隊(duì)教學(xué)，例如兩個(gè)不同院系的老師可以合作教學(xué)。這在規(guī)模小的院校更容易實(shí)施。我相信，在瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院這樣的環(huán)境中，讓大多數(shù)教職工最喜歡的地方就是，他們可以和學(xué)科背景迥異的人們進(jìn)行交流。這有利于建立一種共同體意識(shí)，也有助于他們進(jìn)行跨學(xué)科的學(xué)術(shù)交流。在規(guī)模較小的院校里，更容易看到跨學(xué)科課程。

University:Do you try to create the sense of community as part of the culture of liberal arts colleges?

President Rosenberg :I think so. From the time that colleges were fi rst created, one of the goals was to create a living and learning community. I think that remains particularly true of these small colleges. One of the ways that you can tell is that the alumni tend to be more deeply connected than at big places: they feel like they’re part of something—a club and a family. It’s easier to generate that feeling when a college is small than when it’s very, very big. At place like University of Michigan, where my son went, they probably have 350,000 alumni. We have 30,000. It’s easier to create a sense of being part of a family when it’s 30,000 instead of 350,000.

One of the advantages of being at a small college is that a faculty member would be much more likely to interact with people outside the department. At a large university where there might be 50 people in the English department, you might spend almost all of your time just interacting with other English professors. At Macalester,where there might be 10 people in the English department, you’re much more likely to interact with people in other departments—not just in your academic work, but also in social settings. We encourage team-teaching,with faculty from two different departments can teach together. That’s easier to do at a small place. I think most faculty will tell you that one of the things they’d like about an environment like Macalester’s is that they do get to interact with people whose disciplines are very different from their own. It helps create a sense of community and also helps intellectually to interact with people from a range of disciplines. I think you tend to see a more interdisciplinary curriculum at small places than at big places.

●我覺(jué)得文理學(xué)院提供的教育仍然是美國(guó)最好的教育，但是這種院校越來(lái)越少而不是越來(lái)越多。文理學(xué)院現(xiàn)在面臨著許多重大挑戰(zhàn)。我們必須確保不要丟掉卓越，盡可能提高效率，更好地教育學(xué)生。我不認(rèn)為從文理學(xué)院轉(zhuǎn)型成研究型大學(xué)更好，這會(huì)改變我們，而我們更愿意保持自己的特色，我希望專注于我們的使命，這是我們辦學(xué)的核心，即，教育好本科生。如果文理學(xué)院消失了，那意味著某些極其有價(jià)值的東西丟失了。規(guī)模小的時(shí)候，很難把一些事情都做好，但是我仍然寧可小而出色，也不要擴(kuò)大規(guī)模。

《大學(xué)》：您自從2007年開(kāi)始擔(dān)任瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院大學(xué)校長(zhǎng)一職已經(jīng)13年了。13年來(lái)，學(xué)校最大的變化是什么？您最看重學(xué)校哪方面的發(fā)展？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：我們進(jìn)一步發(fā)揚(yáng)了共同體精神。比起13年前，現(xiàn)在學(xué)校的共同體氛圍更加濃厚。有時(shí)候有人問(wèn)我，讓我夜不成眠的是什么，我最擔(dān)心的是什么。我想是財(cái)務(wù)模式，即如何在提高我們的教學(xué)質(zhì)量的同時(shí)，尋求到更多的經(jīng)濟(jì)支持——如何確保給不同經(jīng)濟(jì)背景的學(xué)生提供世界一流的教育。這是我感到最吃力的問(wèn)題。

University:You have been president of Macalester College for more than 13 years since 2007. In the 13 years what’s the biggest change at Macalester College? What aspect do you pay a lot of effort into?

President Rosenberg:I think we’ve developed a much stronger culture of being one community. I think it’s more a sense of community now than there was 13 years ago. Sometimes people ask me what keeps me up at night, what I worry about the most. It’s the fi nancial model; it’s balancing the quality of what we do with the access to fi nancial aid—how we make sure we are providing a world-class education to an economically diverse group of students. That’s the hardest thing I do.

《大學(xué)》：文理學(xué)院在美國(guó)曾經(jīng)占主導(dǎo)地位，那時(shí)絕大多數(shù)大學(xué)都是文理學(xué)院，而現(xiàn)在文理學(xué)院只占不到6%的份額。您如何看待文理學(xué)院現(xiàn)在美國(guó)高等教育中的地位和未來(lái)的發(fā)展趨勢(shì)？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：我覺(jué)得文理學(xué)院現(xiàn)在面臨著許多重大挑戰(zhàn)。首先，小型學(xué)院如今經(jīng)濟(jì)狀況越來(lái)越嚴(yán)峻，這些院校大都是私立院校。而在中國(guó)和世界其他國(guó)家，大學(xué)主要是公立性質(zhì)，有政府的財(cái)政支持。在美國(guó)，大多數(shù)文理學(xué)院都是私立的，他們自己籌措資金，學(xué)費(fèi)很貴。所以很多學(xué)生確實(shí)無(wú)法支付這些小型私立文理學(xué)院學(xué)費(fèi)，選擇這些學(xué)校的學(xué)生人數(shù)正在大幅減少，因此很多類似的學(xué)院正慢慢地銷聲匿跡。很多院校選擇轉(zhuǎn)型，變成其他類型的學(xué)校。也有少數(shù)文理學(xué)院實(shí)力雄厚，財(cái)力充足，發(fā)展得很好，但是這樣的學(xué)校不多。我覺(jué)得文理學(xué)院提供的教育仍然是美國(guó)最好的教育，但是這種院校越來(lái)越少而不是越來(lái)越多。我認(rèn)為在未來(lái)的十年，文理學(xué)院的數(shù)量還會(huì)持續(xù)減少，而不是增加。

University:We know that in the past, liberal arts colleges were dominant: most of the colleges were liberal arts colleges, but now they only account for about 6 percent. What do you think about their status in the American higher education system?

President Rosenberg:I think that liberal arts colleges now face a number of quite signi fi cant challenges.First of all, the economic circumstances of small colleges now are more and more dif fi cult. Most of these colleges are private, unlike in China and really in most of the world, where most colleges are public and fi nanced by the government. Most liberal arts colleges are private and they fi nance themselves and they're very expensive. And so the number of people who are really able to pay what it costs to get an education at a small private liberal arts college is shrinking relatively quickly. You have seen overnight a number of these colleges go away. You see a lot of them change into different kinds of colleges. There’s a small group of liberal arts colleges that are very strong and that are well-resourced, so they have enough money to be successful. But that number is not large. I think it's still the best kind of education we provide in the United States, but you probably see fewer rather than more liberal arts colleges. I think the number in ten years will be smaller than it is now, not larger.

《大學(xué)》：您認(rèn)為文理學(xué)院應(yīng)如何應(yīng)對(duì)這一挑戰(zhàn)？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：一是告訴人們博雅教育具有很大的價(jià)值。我認(rèn)為有必要讓人們相信投資這種昂貴的教育是值得的，一定會(huì)有所回報(bào)。文理學(xué)院會(huì)更多地宣傳這種價(jià)值。二是確保我們確實(shí)為在校生提供了高質(zhì)量的博雅教育。還有一點(diǎn)就是控制成本。我們必須確保不要丟掉卓越，盡可能提高效率，更好地教育學(xué)生。應(yīng)對(duì)這一挑戰(zhàn)，我們需要傳遞信息，提供教育價(jià)值，提升自己的效率。這些都是現(xiàn)在至關(guān)重要的問(wèn)題。

University:How to cope with the challenges?

President Rosenberg:Part of it is delivering the message to people that a liberal arts education has a great deal of value. I think people need to be convinced that the investment on an expensive education is worth it and will pay them back. Part of it is making sure that we provide the liberal arts’ high level of value to the students who enroll in our schools. And part of it is controlling our costs. We have to make sure we are not losing our excellence and that we are as ef fi cient as possible as we educate our students. It’s a matter of message, it’s a matter of providing value, and it’s a matter of being ef fi cient ourselves. They are all things that are crucial right now.

《大學(xué)》：如何使人們相信文理學(xué)院的這種教育價(jià)值呢？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：我們得向人們證明他們投資在文理學(xué)院的教育是值得的。但我們面臨的一個(gè)挑戰(zhàn)是，有些價(jià)值很難去衡量。博雅教育一方面要幫助學(xué)生為就業(yè)做準(zhǔn)備，但也要為學(xué)生過(guò)上更加豐富和更有思想的生活做準(zhǔn)備，還要使學(xué)生成為有參與意識(shí)的公民，但是這些都很難衡量。就業(yè)是很容易衡量的，譬如我們可以展示的是，在瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院有70%的學(xué)生繼續(xù)深造獲得更高的學(xué)位，我校學(xué)生畢業(yè)之后的就業(yè)率大約是美國(guó)大學(xué)生平均就業(yè)率的兩倍。尤其是當(dāng)這些畢業(yè)生到35歲左右時(shí)，他們開(kāi)始獲得一些額外的收入，也就是說(shuō)他們當(dāng)初在瑪卡萊斯特學(xué)院這樣的地方上大學(xué)的回報(bào)就開(kāi)始體現(xiàn)出來(lái)，而這之后都是他們的收益。

所以，對(duì)于大多數(shù)人來(lái)說(shuō)尤其重要的一點(diǎn)是，我們需要表明我們將能提供的經(jīng)濟(jì)價(jià)值。我們可以將錢花在很多方面，教育的不同之處在于它能提供最大的投資回報(bào)。你可以買一輛小汽車或一棟房子，但是你知道車子開(kāi)的時(shí)間越長(zhǎng)，價(jià)值越低；你無(wú)法預(yù)計(jì)房?jī)r(jià)走向，它有可能上漲，也有可能下降?？梢源_定的是，如果你將錢投資到教育，你肯定可以獲得很好的回報(bào)。在我看來(lái)，在所有你能花錢的地方，教育對(duì)于一個(gè)家長(zhǎng)或?qū)W生來(lái)說(shuō)是最重要的，是其他一切的關(guān)鍵。

University:How do you convince people of the value of liberal arts education provided by this kind of college?

President Rosenberg:We have to provide evidence that shows that this kind of education will provide value for the investment. Some of the challenges is that some of the value that we provide is not easily measured.Liberal arts education is designed in part to prepare for your job. But it's also designed to prepare you to live a richer or more thoughtful life, and to be an engaged citizen, and those things are very dif fi cult to measure.

The job part is the easiest to measure. What we can show, for instance, is that at a place like Macalester College, about 70 percent of our students go on and get an advanced degree. The percentage of our students who get jobs when they leave college is about twice the average for students graduating from US colleges. Typically by the time alumni are in their mid-thirties, they will gain extra income from graduating from a place like Macalester College that will pay back the cost of attending, so everything after that is a gain.

For a lot of people, it’s really important that we demonstrate the economic value that we will provide. There are many things in our lives that we can spend money on. The difference for education is that it provides the highest return on our investment. When you buy a car, or when you buy a house, you know the value of the car will go down as soon as it’s not new. You don’t know what’s going to happen to the house: the value may go up or the value may go down. You can be pretty sure when you invest in education that you’re going to get a positive return on it. For all the things you can spend money on, in my view, as a parent, as a student, education is by far the most important. It’s the key to everything else.

《大學(xué)》：您有沒(méi)有想過(guò)擴(kuò)大學(xué)院規(guī)模？如果有可能，您愿意將文理學(xué)院轉(zhuǎn)型成研究型大學(xué)嗎？為什么？

羅森伯格校長(zhǎng)：沒(méi)有。我不認(rèn)為從文理學(xué)院轉(zhuǎn)型成研究型大學(xué)更好。這會(huì)改變我們，而我們更愿意保持自己的特色，我希望專注于我們的使命，這是我們辦學(xué)的核心，即，教育好本科生。我寧愿繼續(xù)我們擅長(zhǎng)的工作，而不是去干別的。文理學(xué)院不同于研究型大學(xué)，它是完全不同的組織和教學(xué)機(jī)構(gòu)。

我認(rèn)為文理學(xué)院的工作很重要，我們也做得很好。我仍然相信，即便有各種新發(fā)明的技術(shù)，依然沒(méi)有什么可以替代學(xué)生和教師之間的密切交流，及學(xué)生之間的交流。這是人與人之間的交流。我認(rèn)為文理學(xué)院這個(gè)特殊的環(huán)境可以有效地促進(jìn)這種交流。為什么要改變它？我不想去改變它。如果時(shí)代迫使它改變，我們就改變，如果沒(méi)有，我們就不會(huì)改變。如果文理學(xué)院消失了，那意味著某些極其有價(jià)值的東西丟失了。

規(guī)模越大越好，我想這是個(gè)事實(shí)，不僅大學(xué)如此，企業(yè)也這樣。越來(lái)越多的企業(yè)因?yàn)樾《茈y生存。教育也不是特例。大企業(yè)的經(jīng)濟(jì)模式通常運(yùn)轉(zhuǎn)得更好，這一理念可能也適用于教育領(lǐng)域。這也是為什么很多小型院校正在掙扎。規(guī)模小的時(shí)候，很難把一些事情都做好。但是我仍然寧可小而出色，也不要擴(kuò)大規(guī)模。

University:Have you ever thought of making the college bigger? Would you like to develop it into a research university if possible? Why or why not?

President Rosenberg:No. I don't see evolving from a liberal arts college to a research university as something that would be better. It would make us different and I think that I would prefer not to be different.I’ll prefer to keep focused on the mission that is at the heart of what we do, which is educating undergraduates.I would rather keep doing what we are doing well than try to be something else. A liberal arts college is not a research university. It is a whole different organization, a different institution.

I think that the work is important and the outcomes are really good. I still think, even with all the technology that has been created, that nothing can really substitute for the closer interaction between students and faculty, and closer interaction among students. It’s all about human beings interacting with other human beings. I think this particular environment allows that to happen in a very fruitful way. So why change it? I don’t want to change it. If circumstances force it to change, then we will, but if they don’t, then I think we will not. If these kinds of places ever go away, something extremely valuable will have been lost.

Bigger is better. That’s true, not just in colleges, but when you think about business. For more and more businesses, it’s hard to be small and survive. Education is not unique. And the notion that the economic model of a very large business works better— there may be some truth to that in education. That is why some of these institutions are struggling. It’s hard to do these things small. But I would rather be small and outstanding than larger.