舌尖上的絲綢之路

Silk Road on the Tip of the Tongue

《舌尖上的中國(guó)》曾在海內(nèi)外熱播，打開了人們的味蕾。作家、文化學(xué)者崔岱遠(yuǎn)老師對(duì)美食的掌故熟稔于心，他的著作《吃貨辭典》入選“中國(guó)影響力圖書”“中國(guó)好書”，被譽(yù)為接地氣的好作品！本期“國(guó)際朋友說”特邀嘉賓崔岱遠(yuǎn)邀請(qǐng)國(guó)際朋友來到北京貴賓樓飯店玉蘭廳，聊一聊那些通過絲綢之路流傳到國(guó)外的中國(guó)食物，以及那些通過絲綢之路來到中國(guó)的外國(guó)食物，一起分享食物源流和演變的“舌尖上的絲綢之路”。

The program “China on the Tip of the Tongue”, which has gone viral both in the country and abroad, has revealed the taste of China to people. Writer and scholar Cui Daiyuan's, Dictionary of a Foodie, has been included in the China’s Most In fl uential Books and China Loves Reading collections, and has become famous for its “down-to-earth”narration. This time, scholar Cui was invited as a special guest for “World Speaking”, an event held at Grand Hotel Beijing, to give a talk on what food from China was exported to other countries along the ancient Silk Road route, and to discuss the food origins and how “Silk Road on the Tip of the Tongue” evolved.

主持人(Host)：吳星鐸，中國(guó)（Wu Xingduo，China）

嘉賓(Guests)：蘇莉，俄羅斯（Anastasia Sukhoretskaya,Russia）；吳求，孟加拉國(guó)（Shayer S. Utsho, Bangladesh）

特邀嘉賓(Special Guest)：崔岱遠(yuǎn)（Cui Daiyuan）

(作家，文化學(xué)者，北京讀書形象大使，首都圖書館榮譽(yù)館員，北京閱讀季首批領(lǐng)讀者培訓(xùn)師，全國(guó)讀書會(huì)聯(lián)盟導(dǎo)師，現(xiàn)任中國(guó)財(cái)政經(jīng)濟(jì)出版社副編審。系列作品《京味兒》《京味兒食足》《京范兒》引領(lǐng)人們循著文字感受京城民間最本真的性情氣韻?！冻载涋o典》入選“中國(guó)影響力圖書”“中國(guó)好書”，被譽(yù)為接地氣的好作品。）(Special Guest Cui Daiyuan is a writer, culture scholar, Beijing book reading image ambassador, Capital Library honorable librarian,trainer during the Beijing reading season, supervisor of National Readers Union, and subeditor of China Finance and Economics publishing house. Cui was elected as a main expert during the 12th, 13th and 14th Beijing International Book Festival, a guest at CCTV, CNRS and China Education Channel. Cui has published The Taste of Beijing, Abundance of Beijing Taste, and Beijing Style, all of which introduce the real taste of the capital.His book, The Dictionary of a Foodie, has been selected to be in the China’s Most In fl uential Books and Recommended Books of China collections.)

書齋趣話

主持人：話題還是從絲路開始，談到絲綢之路，大家腦海中首先浮現(xiàn)的是什么形象？

吳求：第一個(gè)畫面會(huì)是很長(zhǎng)一條彎彎曲曲的路，一隊(duì)人騎著駱駝，走啊走啊。

蘇莉：第一畫面會(huì)是絲綢，因?yàn)槭墙z綢之路。

崔岱遠(yuǎn)：絲綢之路是一個(gè)相當(dāng)長(zhǎng)的歷史時(shí)期，是一個(gè)廣闊的時(shí)空。其實(shí)絲綢之路和中國(guó)人關(guān)系最大的不是絲綢，而是飲食。說到飲食，就不得不提小麥。小麥這種原始植物產(chǎn)生于兩河流域，現(xiàn)在的考古學(xué)家還在敘利亞發(fā)現(xiàn)過炭化的小麥粒。經(jīng)過相當(dāng)長(zhǎng)的一段時(shí)期，小麥本身的品種也進(jìn)行了許多演化，才傳到了今天的新疆進(jìn)行種植。小麥?zhǔn)裁磿r(shí)候穿越河西走廊來到內(nèi)地中原的呢？這是個(gè)漫長(zhǎng)的過程，西周歷史典籍《穆天子傳》里有記載說，周穆王從一個(gè)西域女性氏族首領(lǐng)那里得到麥子運(yùn)回鎬京，所以才有了撒在八百里秦川上的小麥種子。直到今天，陜西仍是小麥的主產(chǎn)地，而且質(zhì)量特別好。在那個(gè)時(shí)候，人們以小麥為主食，吃的肉主要是羊肉。

主持人：這讓人聯(lián)想起一碗熱騰騰的羊肉泡饃。

崔岱遠(yuǎn)：是這樣的，羊肉泡饃相當(dāng)于把餅撕碎了泡在水里吃，而我們熟知的餅，其實(shí)也不是中國(guó)人發(fā)明的，是西域傳過來的。今天你到伊朗、伊拉克，那里的人也吃在餅鐺上烤的大餅。傳到新疆的時(shí)候叫馕，這個(gè)詞是波斯語。再傳到中原就叫胡餅了，《漢書》上說漢靈帝喜歡新鮮玩意，喜歡吃胡餅，結(jié)果當(dāng)時(shí)京城里就很多人吃胡餅，就跟現(xiàn)在吃西餐一樣，趕時(shí)髦。到了唐朝的時(shí)候，長(zhǎng)安城里到處都是賣胡餅的。

主持人：小麥?zhǔn)遣皝砥?，那么中?guó)的面食是不是原創(chuàng)？或者也是從西域傳來的？

崔岱遠(yuǎn)：面食的確是中國(guó)人發(fā)明的。東漢時(shí)代，石磨開始普及了，人們開始把小麥磨成面。怎么吃呢？中國(guó)人不會(huì)烤面包，就是加點(diǎn)水，和成團(tuán)，把面揪成一塊一塊的擱水里煮，就變成煮揪湯片了，直到現(xiàn)在陜西還在吃這個(gè)，這就是面條的祖宗，但它不叫面條，叫湯餅。因?yàn)樵谥袊?guó)古漢語里把開水叫作湯。這么一來，面條就出現(xiàn)了，所以，面條是從中國(guó)發(fā)源的。因?yàn)樵诰久娴臅r(shí)候，揪著揪著發(fā)現(xiàn)里面有一個(gè)東西叫面筋，面筋實(shí)際是兩種蛋白質(zhì)，它有延展性和彈性，能抻回來抻回去，抻著抻著就成面條了。最早做面就是拿水和面，后來發(fā)展到拿雞湯和面，抻成韭菜似的那么長(zhǎng)那么細(xì)，然后拿熱氣一熏，再下鍋煮，這個(gè)就是《齊民要術(shù)》上說的水引餅。

主持人：在中國(guó)，不同地方的面條也是各有特點(diǎn)。

崔岱遠(yuǎn)：沒錯(cuò)：甘肅的面條是面條的最原始狀態(tài)——拉面，蘭州當(dāng)?shù)亟兴Ｈ饷妗ｍ樦S河到了陜西，面條就更有中原氣息了，出現(xiàn)了褲帶面和Biángbiáng面。等到了山西，面條種類數(shù)以千計(jì)，山西的面條不只是白面，還有高粱面、豆面的。

主持人：那么，面條是不是被馬可·波羅傳到歐洲才變成意大利面的？

崔岱遠(yuǎn)：你說對(duì)了一半，意大利面是中國(guó)的面條傳過去的，但不是馬可·波羅帶過去的，因?yàn)樵隈R可·波羅出生前10年，意大利就有關(guān)于意大利面的記載了。具體怎么傳過去的有兩種說法，一種是唐代時(shí)阿拉伯商人來長(zhǎng)安做生意，發(fā)現(xiàn)長(zhǎng)安人吃面條，就像咱們到了紐約發(fā)現(xiàn)人家在吃麥當(dāng)勞似的，于是就把它帶回去了。有意思的是途中經(jīng)過沙漠，面條自然就干了，回去之后拿水一泡，煮煮就吃了。所以意大利人以為面條都是干的。另一種說法是，海上絲路的終點(diǎn)就是意大利的西西里島，研究發(fā)現(xiàn)最早吃意大利面的地方就在西西里島，而在中國(guó)南宋的時(shí)候西西里島是被阿拉伯人統(tǒng)治的，現(xiàn)在教堂上還掛著阿拉伯的畫，阿拉伯人由于宗教問題沒有把筷子傳過去，所以意大利面是用刀叉吃的。

各地飲食特色

Biángbiáng面是陜西關(guān)中特色傳統(tǒng)風(fēng)味面食，是傳統(tǒng)的陜西褲帶面。特指關(guān)中麥子磨成的面粉，通常手工拉成長(zhǎng)寬厚的面條。由上等面粉精制而成，用醬油、醋、味精、花椒等佐料調(diào)入面湯，撈入面條，淋上燒熱的植物油即成。來自孟加拉國(guó)的吳求當(dāng)場(chǎng)展示“Biáng”字筆畫書寫，得到了主持人、嘉賓和國(guó)際朋友們的一致贊許。

主持人：你們國(guó)家有哪些食物是從中國(guó)來的？

吳求：面食是中國(guó)來的，這點(diǎn)我知道。在孟加拉國(guó)我們的主食是大米和米飯。面條的話，受西方的影響，我們習(xí)慣吃干面。但我早就猜到它來源于中國(guó)。我見過中國(guó)廚師們做拉面，這樣拉來拉去，拉個(gè)沒完也不斷，就覺得這個(gè)手藝我們那邊做不到，一定是中國(guó)來的。

蘇莉：俄羅斯受到的影響是西方的，大多都是西餐，中國(guó)的食物很少。不過俄羅斯的食物傳統(tǒng)里也經(jīng)常會(huì)吃餃子，我們總說餃子是我們自己的，其實(shí)它是中國(guó)傳來的。我們的餃子有肉餡的，也有白菜餡的，跟中國(guó)相差無幾。

主持人：你們的國(guó)家有哪些食物流傳到中國(guó)或者世界？

蘇莉：我覺得是紅菜湯吧。紅菜湯比較傳統(tǒng)，在整個(gè)東歐都比較流行，應(yīng)該是發(fā)源于烏克蘭、白俄羅斯和俄羅斯這個(gè)地區(qū)，不太清楚具體是哪個(gè)國(guó)家。

主持人：推薦一個(gè)你們國(guó)家最美味的食物。

吳求：我要推薦甜品。我們孟加拉國(guó)有一種甜品，像是餃子，有餡，里面放的料比如說椰子、椰肉。再比如我們的炒魚，鹽放得很多，很有味道，值得大家吃吃看。

蘇莉：俄羅斯有兩百多個(gè)民族，每個(gè)民族都有自己的習(xí)慣，他們還是盡量會(huì)保持自己的習(xí)慣。比如我出生在韃靼斯坦共和國(guó)，我們和韃靼人住在一起，他們是穆斯林，有自己的傳統(tǒng)食品，比較有名的Chak-chak，很甜的東西，和中國(guó)的薩其馬類似，但做法不一樣。除此之外還有Echpochmak，是一種烤出來的三角肉餅，里面放肉和土豆，當(dāng)然也有圓的、方的。如果讓我推薦，韃靼斯坦風(fēng)格的就是Chak-chak，俄羅斯風(fēng)格的就是剛才提到的紅菜湯。

主持人：如果請(qǐng)大家向你們國(guó)家的朋友推薦一個(gè)中國(guó)最美味的食物，你會(huì)推薦什么？

吳求：首推宮保雞丁，這道菜絕對(duì)會(huì)得到非常多人的喜愛。

蘇莉：我最近因?yàn)橐３稚聿?，吃得不多，但是有一個(gè)習(xí)慣是不能放棄的，就是吃甜食。我覺得血液里面流淌著甜食，比較喜歡中國(guó)的稻香村。

崔岱遠(yuǎn)：人類的文明就是在交流當(dāng)中產(chǎn)生的，在交流當(dāng)中我們才能夠互相學(xué)習(xí)、互相發(fā)展。在我看來飲食是一切文明的基礎(chǔ)。你只有了解一個(gè)地方的飲食才能了解一個(gè)地方的人。

（中文整理：吳星鐸、王兆峰；英文整理：蘇莉；欄目主持人為海龍國(guó)際教育創(chuàng)新研究院研究員）

Anecdotes from a Scholar

Host: Let us start with the Silk Road. When you hear Silk Road,what comes to your mind?

Shayer: The first impression is a long twisting road and a caravan of people riding camels.

Anastasia: Maybe the first impression is silk, because it is in the name of Silk Road.

Cui Daiyuan: The Silk Road period is very long in history.Actually, it has more to do with China in terms of food, and not silk. Talking about food, we have to mention wheat. The wheat plant first appeared in Mesopotamia, and archeologists also discovered wheat being in Syria. Throughout a rather long period of time, the types of wheat plant had undergone several changes, and only after wards came to Xinjiang. How did wheat come the Central area? It is also due to a rather long history.From a book called Tale of King Mu where we learn about Prince Zhou Mu who brought wheat to the capital. Up till now, Shaanxi province is where wheat has been produced at good quality. At that time people used to have wheat as the main course, and mostly with lamb meat.

Host: So you remind us of the Yang Rou Pao Mo.

Cui Daiyuan: Yang Rou Pao Mo appeared because of dropping bread crumbs into the water, and it was not a Chinese person who invented it. If you go to Iran, Iraq, the people there all eat round bread. When it came to Xinjiang, it bore a Persian name.When it came to China it started to be called “hu bing”. In The Book of China, Emperor Han Ling liked eating “hu bing” and people started eating “hu bing” in similar fashion too. Now it is similar to us going to fashionable Western restaurants.

Host: I understand that wheat came to China from abroad. What about fl our products? Are they also from other countries?

Cui Daiyuan: No, flour products were invented in China. During the Eastern Han dynasty, people poured some water, then dropped the pieces of bread into the hot water. This is how people of Shaanxi eat it. It is the grandfather of noodles. They were not called noodles though, they were called soup pie. So, noodles came later. So to say, noodles originated in China. Later the Chinese discovered gluten, a type of protein that can turn into noodles.The earliest recipe of noodles is to take water and bread, then take chicken to make a broth, put vegetables in it, and heat up the pot. It was also described in the Art for the People book.

Host: In China, noodles from different places taste differently,right?

Cui Daiyuan: Yes, in Gansu province the fi rst type of noodles which appeared are Ramen noodles, in Lanzhou they were called beef noodles. Along the yellow river, they came to Shaanxi. There also came noodles called Biangbiang. In Shanxi province there are plenty of different types of noodles.

Host: Noodles were brought to Italy by Marco Polo and became Italian noodles, right?

Cui Daiyuan: Half of it is true. At first, yes, there were Chinese noodles in Italy, but it was not because of Marco Polo. 10 years before Marco Polo’s born, notes about noodles had already existed. One of the versions of the story is that an Arabic merchant came to Chang’an to do business, and he discovered the tasty noodles, just like when we go to New York and discover that people eat in McDonald’s. So, when the noodles came to the desert, it was dried already. Then they used water and the noodles became soft again. Another version is that the Italian island of Sicily was on the route of the Maritime Silk Road. Sicily was controlled by the Arabs during the Tang Dynasty in China, and because the Arabs were afraid to use chopsticks because of the religious reasons, now noodles in Italy are eaten with a fork.

崔岱遠(yuǎn)

Various Eating Habbits

Biang noodles are the special Chinese traditional food of Shaanxi province. The biang noodles are always hand-made.Vtssho from Bangladesh demonstrated his talents in writing the dif fi cult character “biáng”, and got the speakers, host, and guests’ appreciation.

Host: Which foods in your country come from China?

Utssho: Our noodles come from China, this I know. In Bangladesh we eat rice. And about noodles, I like dry noodles.But I already knew that noodles originated in China. I have seen the Chinese chef performing Ramen, he was pulling it like there is no end, and we can’t perform this art in my country, so of course, it is from China.

Anastasia: The Russian food got influenced by Western food,and we almost don’t any have food that came from China.But in Russia, we eat dumplings a lot. We always thought that dumplings were originated here, in Russia, but actually they come from China. We have meat and vegetable fillings just like in China.

Host: Which of your countries’ food came to China or the world?

Anastasia: I think, our borsch. Borsch is a very traditional dish, popular all over Eastern Europe. I think it originated in Ukraine, Belorussia, or Russia, but I am not sure exactly which country.

Host: Recommend one food from your country, please.

Utsho: I would like to tell about our sweets. We like sweet food in Bangladesh, like dumplings with fi llings, for example have coconut. Also, when we cook fish we add a lot of salt. It's so delicious, I recommend it to try.

Anastasia: There more than 200 nationalities living in Russia,.Every nationality has its own habits and they still keep their traditions. For example, I was born in Tatarstan, and we live side by side with Tatars. They are Muslim, and they have their traditional food. One of the most famous ones is Chak-Chak.It's is very sweet and reminds me of Chinese saqima. But it has different cooking recipes. We also have Echpochmak, a triangle shaped pie with meat and potatoes. I would recommend trying Chak-Chak, and from Russian cuisine, borsch.

Host: What do you think is the most delicious Chinese food?

Utsho: Gong Pao Chicken, first, of course, it is liked by many.

Anastasia: Because I always try to keep fit, I don't eat too much,but there is a habit I can't drop - I like eating sweet food. I think it is in my blood to eat sweets, so I like "Daoxiangcun", a chinese cake brand.

Cui Daiyuan: Civilization exists because communication between people exists, we learn and develop thanks to interactions with each other. In my opinion, food is the basics of civilization. If you know about local eating habits, you may know about the people who live there.

(Chinese version: Wu Xingduo, Wang Zhaofeng; English version:Anastasia Sukhoretskaya. The host of World Speaking is researcher of Seadragon Innovation Institute of International Education. )

本期國(guó)際朋友說在北京貴賓樓飯店舉辦