李夢(mèng)紅++姜弋+盛銳++王路

姜弋（簡(jiǎn)稱“姜”）：我注意到你的作品在展覽陳列上有很多變化，在表現(xiàn)形式上也有時(shí)抽象，有時(shí)具象，能否談?wù)勀銓?duì)于現(xiàn)代繪畫在社會(huì)功能和個(gè)人表達(dá)方面的看法？

Han Nae Kim（簡(jiǎn)稱“H N K”）：我們生活在任何事物都可以被輕易地發(fā)現(xiàn)、實(shí)現(xiàn)、比較、混合、崇拜以及放棄的多元化時(shí)代。在這種社會(huì)里，我們很難用傳統(tǒng)的價(jià)值標(biāo)準(zhǔn)來(lái)衡量現(xiàn)在的快節(jié)奏生活。我在作品中的表達(dá)方式，多是對(duì)當(dāng)下內(nèi)部或外部的刺激所做的自發(fā)的、瞬間的反應(yīng)（圖1）。這是我所獨(dú)有的記錄周圍生活的方式。就整個(gè)人類而言，我們通過(guò)視覺(jué)、觸覺(jué)與諸多變化著的客觀物體發(fā)生聯(lián)系。作為一名藝術(shù)創(chuàng)作者，我常常被許多難以用視覺(jué)方式表達(dá)的形式所吸引。藝術(shù)家的作品無(wú)論是具象還是抽象，亦或是兩者之間，它都是一種表達(dá)的形式、一種刻錄時(shí)間的形式，以及對(duì)于本我的探究。我們通過(guò)觀察、理解并結(jié)合以往的認(rèn)知經(jīng)驗(yàn)與圖像建立聯(lián)系，而當(dāng)我們被這些這些圖像束縛時(shí)，它們又會(huì)成為創(chuàng)作表達(dá)的障礙。因此，我尊重從片面的、絕對(duì)的一體化向相對(duì)的、相互的多元化轉(zhuǎn)變的創(chuàng)作模式，并理解其重要性。

H N K： We all are living in the century where everything can be easily found， achieved， compared， mixed， adored or abandoned. It is difficult to get connected with the common threads out of what's readily available in the fast paced societies. The ways I express in my studio or in gallery spaces start from the spontaneous or rather instantaneous decisions incurred as the moments' respond to internal and external stimuli. They are my own unique recordings of what's surrounding my existence. As a human being I am related to any particular or given forms whether or not it is distinguishable through tactility or vision. As an art practitioner I am attracted to forms but sometimes they cannot be describable in a visual sense. Whether it is representational or abstract， or anywhere in between， the artist's product is a form of statement， a form of inscribed time， and the artist's self. Through understanding， observation and experiences， we become related to forms or images of forms， however， when we are bound to those forms， they become our limits. Therefore， I respect the importance in modern art for making a paradigm shift moving from a one-sided and absolute integration or unification towards mutual and relative pluralism.

姜：你的作品有較多的地方用到了天然漆，能否談?wù)勀銓?duì)這個(gè)材料的理解？

H N K：亞洲漆（天然漆）是一種取自漆樹(shù)的天然材料，以耐用和穩(wěn)定的特性區(qū)別于其他聚合物。天然漆可以說(shuō)是東亞地區(qū)的工匠們使用最早和最多的材料之一，目前發(fā)現(xiàn)最早的髹漆工藝品是在中國(guó)新石器時(shí)期。

該工藝用天然漆裝飾和保護(hù)由木材、紙張、玻璃、金屬、陶瓷、皮革等材質(zhì)制成的日常物品以及稀世珍寶的表面，至今已運(yùn)用了多個(gè)世紀(jì)。這在過(guò)去需要較高的技巧和專業(yè)的匠人。該工藝在中國(guó)、韓國(guó)、日本使用較多，并在發(fā)展過(guò)程中形成各自獨(dú)特的民族風(fēng)格。

Christine Guth在《觸覺(jué)之外：日本漆傳統(tǒng)演繹中的知覺(jué)研究》一文中對(duì)漆的解釋如下：“漆是復(fù)雜的社會(huì)、經(jīng)濟(jì)、審美、象征的世界的一部分，這個(gè)復(fù)雜世界的完整演繹吸引著人的聽(tīng)覺(jué)、嗅覺(jué)、味覺(jué)，特別是觸覺(jué)。”漆器的觸覺(jué)質(zhì)感和感官體驗(yàn)在制作過(guò)程中與美學(xué)體驗(yàn)同樣重要，如果忽略漆的感官價(jià)值，就不會(huì)真正體會(huì)到漆藝美麗的本質(zhì)。然而在邏各斯文化中，“視覺(jué)”通常優(yōu)先于其它感覺(jué)。在解決問(wèn)題時(shí)，視覺(jué)是分析和分類的常用工具，在形式邏輯和慣性思維中起著重要作用。主流的西方思想常常將其它的感覺(jué)邊緣化，如將觸覺(jué)理解為直覺(jué)與非理性，并認(rèn)為其不可靠且毫無(wú)價(jià)值。“藝術(shù)”作為一種形式，主要通過(guò)視覺(jué)、聽(tīng)覺(jué)和視聽(tīng)方式來(lái)表達(dá)。視覺(jué)和聽(tīng)覺(jué)通常被認(rèn)為是接近心靈的方法，相對(duì)“高級(jí)”；而味覺(jué)、嗅覺(jué)和觸覺(jué)則或多或少地受到身體的束縛。然而就像19世紀(jì)晚期原始主義者提倡物質(zhì)和意識(shí)的實(shí)體主要通過(guò)觸覺(jué)獲得的那樣，我強(qiáng)調(diào)在藝術(shù)中對(duì)皮膚、肌肉和觸摸等感覺(jué)的表現(xiàn)（圖2、3）。如果忽略漆藝的感官價(jià)值，就不能真正體會(huì)到漆藝美的本質(zhì)。日本的Negoro漆器1通過(guò)在黑色底漆上施以紅漆，通過(guò)打磨透出底色的方式提升感官品質(zhì)。這種經(jīng)過(guò)打磨呈現(xiàn)出來(lái)的殘破和瑕疵有時(shí)也可以成為藝術(shù)隱喻的手段。endprint

H N K： Urushiol-based Asian lacquer is arguably one of the foremost and popular materials that has been used by artisans in the East Asian region. Lacquered items from Neolithic period was found in China， and the lacquer has been used for centuries to protect and decorate the surfaces of daily items， as well as precious artifacts. It has been practiced predominantly in the East Asian countries of China， Korea and Japan， and gradually developed into distinctive national styles. It is a natural material obtained from the Rhus Verniciflua tree saps， and is distinguished from oth-er polymers by its qualities that are defined as most durable and stable. It traditionally requires high skills and craftsmanship to use lacquer to adorn， shield and combine the surface of a diverse materials such as wood， paper， glass， metals， ceramics or leather.

In Christine Guth's essay， Out of Touch..2 lacquer is explained as follows： 'Lacquer is part of a complex social， economic， aesthetic and symbolic world whose full interpretation engages the senses of sound， smell， taste and， especially， touch.' The tactile quality of lacquer and the sensorial experience involved in the making process are equally important as the aesthetic appeal， however， in the logocentric cultures， 'seeing' is often prioritized over other senses. The eye functions as a rational tool for analyzing and categorizing， and formal logic play a role in problem solving. The Western mind has marginalized other senses， and touch for instance， is coded as primitive and feminine， intuitive and irrational that it can likely be considered unreliable and less worthy. 'Art' predominantly took a form that is visual， auditory or audiovisual， and the rest of the senses were not usually adopted as the main means. Vision and audition are most commonly considered as they are close to the mind， i.e. 'the superior' whereas gustation， olfaction and the tactile are more or less bound to body. However， I value a sense of skin， flesh and touch found in the artw-orks as that of the late 19th century primitivist's， as the substantiality of matter and awareness of what can be experienced， are learned through tactile sensations. Ignoring the sensorial value of lacquer may not arouse the genuine beauty of its materiality. Japanese Negoro； red coloured lacquer wares with black undercoat； style is a good example of heightened sensorial quality as the repeated handling of this lacquerware will eventually wear off， exposing the under layer of black lacquer in patches. The process of damage or death is metaphorically expressed through its own imperfection and mortality.endprint

李夢(mèng)紅（簡(jiǎn)稱“李”）：中、日、韓三國(guó)有大量從事天然漆研究與創(chuàng)作的藝術(shù)家，能否從你的角度談?wù)勥@些國(guó)家藝術(shù)家的整體面貌？

H N K：盡管中國(guó)、韓國(guó)和日本的傳統(tǒng)漆藝各有特色，但他們?cè)诂F(xiàn)代的工藝以繼承為主。漆藝從屬于“美術(shù)”范疇，其形式和風(fēng)格相較于其國(guó)籍來(lái)說(shuō)，更得益于藝術(shù)家的意圖。在過(guò)去的數(shù)十年里，漆在現(xiàn)代藝術(shù)的影響下呈現(xiàn)多元化的表現(xiàn)形式，并運(yùn)用現(xiàn)代語(yǔ)言詮釋傳統(tǒng)工藝。我認(rèn)為這三個(gè)國(guó)家的現(xiàn)代漆藝家正處在關(guān)鍵時(shí)期，他們必須運(yùn)用傳統(tǒng)技法來(lái)創(chuàng)作并完成他們的漆藝作品，與此同時(shí)，他們還要打破傳統(tǒng)的形式和主題，以追求漆藝獨(dú)立的藝術(shù)道路，并擴(kuò)大其“工藝”內(nèi)涵。

H N K：Although the characteristics of traditional lacquer art in China， Korea and Japan are distinct， their approaches toward the modern day adaptation varies not so much. It has been consumed under the category of 'Fine Art' and its form and style owe agreat deal to the intention of the artist， rather than to their nationality. For the last few decades， lacquer has been practiced in a diverse range of forms with contemporary relevance， and with the modern interpretation of traditional craft techniques. I think contemporary lacquer artists in three different countries are on the verge of critical phase where they have to be using traditional techniques for constructing and finishing their lacquer objects， all the while having been broken away from the traditional forms and motifs in order to pursue independent paths of their own and to expand the notion of craft.

李：在您的作品中，特別是紙上作品有一些水墨的圖式，這是否跟亞洲繪畫有關(guān)系？或者跟您的家庭和生活經(jīng)歷有關(guān)？

H N K：思想構(gòu)成形式。我的創(chuàng)作實(shí)踐主要圍繞著如何反應(yīng)身體衰老的過(guò)程，以及如何通過(guò)與材料的接觸喚起這一記憶，我的作品會(huì)不可避免地表現(xiàn)出我自己的特征或記憶的各種形式。自從上個(gè)世紀(jì)90年代我在新西蘭開(kāi)始藝術(shù)創(chuàng)作以來(lái)，我的作品已經(jīng)有意識(shí)或無(wú)意識(shí)地受到自身亞洲經(jīng)歷的影響。在實(shí)踐中，我從韓國(guó)的獨(dú)特文化中所學(xué)到的不同的知識(shí)和信仰越來(lái)越受到關(guān)注。“文化通常存在于潛意識(shí)中，它用一個(gè)看不見(jiàn)的控制機(jī)制來(lái)左右我們的思想。”只有在不同的文化形態(tài)中我們才能意識(shí)到這種獨(dú)特變化。幸運(yùn)的是，我接觸了新西蘭文化，它為我審視自己的文化提供了角度，并根據(jù)不同的文化轉(zhuǎn)變處理方法。意識(shí)到差異性通?？梢愿玫乩斫鈨烧咧g的差異，通過(guò)吸收、反芻以及融合不同的文化，可以產(chǎn)生新的內(nèi)涵。在我對(duì)藝術(shù)作品進(jìn)行效果處理的過(guò)程中，不同材料的自身變化存在著主觀和客觀的原因，但它們具有相互依賴性（圖4、5）。

文化沖突所造成的隔閡往往會(huì)對(duì)人產(chǎn)生諸多心理影響，使其不由自主地進(jìn)入懷疑狀

態(tài)。盡管這種情況被認(rèn)為應(yīng)該連同社會(huì)、哲學(xué)影響一并思考，但我更質(zhì)疑在多文化關(guān)系中自發(fā)的心理危機(jī)，如無(wú)效、取代、短暫、波動(dòng)等感覺(jué)是如何產(chǎn)生并發(fā)揮作用的。

H N K：Thoughts are forms. As my practice is situated around the concerns of how the body holds its history， and how the recalled history can emerge through the act of making contact with materials， no doubt my works inevitably and naturally deliver forms of my own identity or memories. Since I started practicing art in New Zealand in the late 1990s， my work has been consciously and unconsciously influenced by my Asian background， and during my practice， different knowledge and belief I learned from the particular culture of Korea have been increasingly brought to attention. 'Culture is often subconscious； it is an invisible control mechanism which operates our though-ts.'3We become aware of ones own culture by exposure to a different culture， and luckily I have been exposed to this culture of Aotearoa， and it opened my eye to view my own culture and to adapt a different means of processing. Being aware of differences usually leads to a better comprehension of the gaps in between， and by absorbing， ruminating and contaminating cultures， meanings are newly generated. In the attempt of contaminating the materiality within my picture surfaces， the distinction between inside and outside of forms loses its validity， and all things share an interdependency.endprint

The gaps generated by cultural clashes and hybrids， often induce a variety of psychological impact on the person who goes through the involuntary challenges. Although it should be considered in conjunction with social and philosophical influences， I question how spontaneously the psychological crisis， such as a sense / state of futility， displacement， transience or oscillation is affected by and emerged especially from the multi-cultural ties.

李：您的作品經(jīng)常使用不同的材料和肌理表現(xiàn)，這是你在創(chuàng)作中思考的主要問(wèn)題嗎？是誰(shuí)影響了你的創(chuàng)作方向？

H N K：我對(duì)于材料的選擇是無(wú)意識(shí)的自我反射，就像我經(jīng)常會(huì)被一些材料吸引。當(dāng)我運(yùn)用這些材料創(chuàng)作出色調(diào)和肌理時(shí)，會(huì)給觀者以“亞洲感”的印象。我一直在思考觀者在我作品中看到的東方痕跡，我更愿意將其很大部分歸功于我的文化背景。我探索了木炭、蟲膠等材料，在新鮮、純凈、液態(tài)變污、變硬、粉碎的過(guò)程中，材料本身表現(xiàn)出的天然本真狀態(tài)。以我的身體為媒介來(lái)調(diào)動(dòng)、轉(zhuǎn)換和再現(xiàn)已經(jīng)通過(guò)所有感官感知的現(xiàn)象，在創(chuàng)作和破壞以及不斷的變動(dòng)之間產(chǎn)生動(dòng)態(tài)的泡沫、溶體、流動(dòng)、衰變和爆發(fā)，借助沉思的、重復(fù)的、令人著迷的媒介，我的作品在不由自主地與自身過(guò)去的糾纏中進(jìn)步。在此過(guò)程中，我認(rèn)為制作痕跡和創(chuàng)作材料本身的過(guò)程遠(yuǎn)比借助身體與肢體語(yǔ)言之間的關(guān)系來(lái)表達(dá)創(chuàng)作的結(jié)果更為重要?；诖?，我的作品往往會(huì)展示出不完整的形式，并將制作過(guò)程重點(diǎn)表現(xiàn)出來(lái)。有時(shí)，我觀察擁有著不同文化背景的藝術(shù)家創(chuàng)作的作品（不一定是我們所謂的“藝術(shù)”），經(jīng)常沉迷于它們的天然狀態(tài)和創(chuàng)作方法，特別是圖像在創(chuàng)作過(guò)程中所展示的一種松散的結(jié)構(gòu)或有節(jié)奏的內(nèi)容的感覺(jué)，這種感覺(jué)由發(fā)自內(nèi)心的、直觀的快樂(lè)主導(dǎo)，如Chohreh Feyzdjou（伊朗/法國(guó)）和Jannis Kounellis（希臘/意大利）的作品。我會(huì)思考材料本身和它的使用者——藝術(shù)家之間的相互作用（圖6）。

亞洲漆是我所熟悉的用在創(chuàng)作中相對(duì)較新的媒介。當(dāng)材料本身具有豐富的歷史文化，這種多用途的材料就會(huì)對(duì)藝術(shù)創(chuàng)作以及藝術(shù)評(píng)論賦予更多可能性的暗示。漆器制作過(guò)程是一個(gè)耗時(shí)且復(fù)雜的過(guò)程，但是它所展示的形式并非停滯以及呆笨。就如化妝品可以掩蓋皮膚上的瑕疵一樣，這一重復(fù)性過(guò)程——使用、打磨、繪制以及拋光天然漆，可以訓(xùn)練和挑戰(zhàn)我們的身體。擁有精湛技藝的匠人已經(jīng)學(xué)會(huì)強(qiáng)化他們的身體狀態(tài)，即通過(guò)反復(fù)地思考和訓(xùn)練喚醒其本能和節(jié)奏。通過(guò)這樣做，身體的本能也由視覺(jué)、觸覺(jué)轉(zhuǎn)化到本能，最終集中到外在感受（圖7）。

H N K：My choice of materials is unconsciously self-reflective， as I have been continuously drawn to some materials. The palette and the texturesI create while using those materials have resulted in giving the impression of 'Asian-ness' to many viewers. I have been asking myself about the oriental tinge that other people find in my work， and I would like to argue that it owes a good portion to my cultural background. The ingenuous or modest quality and the intractable naturalness found in materials such as charcoal and shellac are explored before， during and after the change of its state from fresh， pure， clean and liquid to contaminated， residual and hard. Using my body as a vessel， a medium or as a bridge to transfer， transform， and to re-enact phenomena that have been perceived through all the senses， I investigate into the relationship between my body and the bodily gestures involved in the process of making marks， traces and ultimately activating the material itself. It is more about the process than the final product， and as a result， my works tend to show an incomplete gestalt and often their processes are brought to the fore. Through meditative， repetitive or obsessive application of the mediums， my work progresses as if it autonomously builds on itself while tangling with its past. Dynamic froths， melts， flows， decays and eruptions are generated in between creation and destruction， and within a constant flux. At times， I observe forms （not necessarily something we call ‘a(chǎn)rt） created by artists of different backgrounds， and get immersed into its nature. Especially when encountered by images in which show a sense of loose structure or rhythmic phases of the process that is maneuvered by rather visceral and intuitive jouissance， such as the works of Chohreh Feyzdjou （Iran/France） or Jannis Kounellis （Gree-ce/Italy）， I think about the efficacy of materials and the role of its handler， namely， the body of the artist.endprint

Alongside the materials I am familiar with， Asian lacquer is comparatively a newer medium I incorporate with my research practice. As the material itself is charged with its own rich culture and history， this versatile material is very suggestive of alternate possibilities in art making and critical thinking. Lacqueringprocess is time consuming and complex but it shares the structure that is not stagnant and dull. As if putting make-ups to conceal the imperfections on the skin， the careful process of applying， rubbing， defining and polishing lacquer trains and challenges my body through the obsessive actions. Artisans who achieved exceptional craftsmanship have learned to activate their bodies into intensified state. Awakening the instinc-tive energy and rhythm in art should be trained through repetitive and contemplative physical movements. And by doing so， the body experiencing visual–material–visceral sensibilities will be sublimated to a flesh， a sensorial mass.

姜：我注意到您強(qiáng)調(diào)創(chuàng)作中的偶然性，能否談?wù)勥@種偶然性和個(gè)人創(chuàng)作情感之間的關(guān)系？以及在您創(chuàng)作中理性和感性的關(guān)系？

H N K：出自德勒茲的敘述層次體系的“塊莖” 表達(dá)了即興和偶然的概念。它所涉及的易變的形式或稍縱即逝的狀態(tài)與我在作品中試圖表達(dá)的形式是一致的。以“塊莖”為范本，我特別地探討了即興創(chuàng)作在繪畫過(guò)程中的重要性，以及它如何消解可能阻礙作品創(chuàng)新的壓迫性思想。我作品中的瀑布和河流的走向無(wú)視自然規(guī)律，呈現(xiàn)出自由流動(dòng)的狀態(tài)。這種狀態(tài)在無(wú)人干預(yù)的自然界是不會(huì)發(fā)生的。在我的作品里，這些畫面連續(xù)斷裂而變形，在自由的線條和形態(tài)中瞬時(shí)合成，通過(guò)元素的快速結(jié)合、碰撞、排比來(lái)表達(dá)我的想法。然而，即興創(chuàng)作并不容易，因?yàn)樵谖覀兊挠洃浐臀幕幸呀?jīng)有了許多約定俗成的規(guī)定（圖8、9）。

當(dāng)直覺(jué)與感受或記憶相互交融，直覺(jué)就會(huì)變成超越時(shí)間、空間和物質(zhì)的一種溝通方式。這種交錯(cuò)的結(jié)構(gòu)作為一種記憶裝置，同時(shí)揭示了可見(jiàn)與不可見(jiàn)之間的相互依賴關(guān)系。如果將每段記憶都視為嚴(yán)格意義上的獨(dú)立整體，并且不會(huì)相互影響，那么就沒(méi)有記憶可以被完整無(wú)缺地展現(xiàn)出來(lái)，因?yàn)樗鼣嘟^了懷舊、憂郁等情緒的影響。通過(guò)使用不斷變化的媒介，我在作品中使用隨機(jī)符號(hào)去描繪一個(gè)詩(shī)意的生疏感：一種保持變化的多元形態(tài)。為了擺脫所有的限制，激發(fā)創(chuàng)作潛能，即興創(chuàng)作對(duì)我來(lái)說(shuō)就是藝術(shù)創(chuàng)作中的核心動(dòng)力。因此，我認(rèn)為藝術(shù)創(chuàng)作沒(méi)有必要制定計(jì)劃或者停下來(lái)思考，應(yīng)該有意識(shí)地放棄一些意義建構(gòu)、內(nèi)容表達(dá)和精神暗示，追尋一種無(wú)意識(shí)的本能表達(dá)。

H N K：Rhizome is improvisational and accidental. It is a Deleuzian concept that speaks of the liberation from hierarchies. Rhizome entails variant forms or transient states， and these differing forms coincide with what I seek to express in my works. Considering rhizome as the model， I explore the importance of improvisation in my drawing process in particular， and how it liberates oppressive thoughts that may hinder the development of my work. The currents of waterfalls and rivers in my drawings ignore the entropy law and flow with a will of their own. This would not happen in the natural world without the intervention of a manmade manipulation. The images are morphed through continuous ruptures and partake in a multiple， momentary synthesis of free-willed lines and gestures. Individual meanings are drawn from the instantaneous combinations， encounters or juxtapositions of elements. However， it is not always easy to improvise as there are already a great number of prescriptions that are prescribed in ourendprint

memory and in the culture.

Perception becomes an act of exchange that surpasses the classification of time， space and matter， when it is intertwined with feelings or memory. This chiastic structure serves as a mnemonic device and at the same time it reveals the interdependent relations between the visible and the invisible. If each memory was distinguished as one discrete wholeness， and did not affect， mix or impact on others， no memory would be remembered in its intact form， as it would be lacking the nostalgic or melancholic affect. Using a constantly changing medium， I incorporate haphazard markings in my drawings to portray a new poetic strangeness. They are variable morphs in between change， in progress. In order to be freed of all the constraints， and activate the potential in the work， improvisation is for me， a core impetus in making art. Therefore I often feel noneed for a plan or hesitation， as if my strokes convey the impression of urgency， an internal necessity； like all

natural processes. In abandonment of conscious construction， dreams， innerscapes and psyche unveil.

注釋：

1日本的一種漆器類型，在黑漆底上涂紅漆，干后打磨，出現(xiàn)自然的黑色斑點(diǎn)。

2Christine Guth.Out of Touch： On the sensorial in the Historical Interpretation of Japanese Lacquer[J].American Journal of Forensic Medicine & Pathology Official Publication of the National Association of Medical Examiners，2011， 32（2）：112-118.

3Shoji Nishimura，Anne Nevgi，Seppo Tella.Communication Style and Cultural Features in High/Low Context Communication Cultures： A Case Study of Finland， Japan and India[J].Helsinkifi， issue Lc，2008：783-796.

4當(dāng)代法國(guó)著名哲學(xué)家德勒茲與精神學(xué)家加塔利提出的一個(gè)重要的后結(jié)構(gòu)主義思想概念。在日常生活中，塊莖令人聯(lián)想到馬鈴薯或紅薯之類的植物?！皦K莖”的生態(tài)學(xué)特征是非中心、無(wú)規(guī)則、多元化的形態(tài)，而“樹(shù)狀”模式則具有中心論、規(guī)范化和等級(jí)制的特征。德勒茲將塊莖作為典型的反中心或“游牧”思維，與柏拉圖以來(lái)主導(dǎo)西方思想的“樹(shù)狀邏輯”恰成對(duì)比。endprint