孫晨光/SUN Chenguang

孫晨光（以下簡(jiǎn)稱S）：謝謝您為我們提供了一次獲得國際視野和學(xué)習(xí)不同知識(shí)的機(jī)會(huì)。事務(wù)所的每一個(gè)項(xiàng)目堪稱經(jīng)過細(xì)致設(shè)計(jì)的優(yōu)秀作品。最近隨著一些最新項(xiàng)目的落成，我想這也是一個(gè)合適的時(shí)機(jī)，能通過您更加直接地了解其中的思想，并和大家分享，這也能幫助我們進(jìn)一步理解這些設(shè)計(jì)本身。

您為什么喜歡設(shè)計(jì)“公共建筑”或者說“公共結(jié)構(gòu)”呢？

倫佐·皮亞諾（以下簡(jiǎn)稱R）：這的確如此，實(shí)際上事務(wù)所80%的項(xiàng)目都是公共建筑。比如文化設(shè)施、音樂廳、劇院、圖書館等等。答案很簡(jiǎn)單，因?yàn)檎沁@些公共建筑，讓我們的城市奇跡般地變得愈加美好。當(dāng)你一個(gè)城市建造了一些很好的公共建筑的時(shí)候，那些供人們使用的空間把城市變成一個(gè)更加宜居的地方。并不是說公共建筑更加重要，但是比如當(dāng)你精心設(shè)計(jì)一所大學(xué)的時(shí)候，就像我們的哥倫比亞大學(xué)項(xiàng)目（美國曼哈頓哥倫比亞大學(xué)新校區(qū)規(guī)劃和建筑設(shè)計(jì)項(xiàng)目，2010年重新開始設(shè)計(jì)，目前正在施工——譯者注）和亞眠項(xiàng)目（法國亞眠某規(guī)劃和建筑設(shè)計(jì)項(xiàng)目，2009年開始設(shè)計(jì)），我們實(shí)際上是在設(shè)計(jì)一個(gè)將會(huì)存在好幾個(gè)世紀(jì)的空間，它們讓城市生活更加豐富多彩。這也是城市如此有趣的原因，因?yàn)槌鞘惺谴嬖谖幕臀拿鞯牡胤?。?shí)際上，“City”這個(gè)單詞也是來自“Civitas”，在這個(gè)意義上，城市和文化是同源的。所以說很簡(jiǎn)單，公共建筑在很多方面給人們提供益處，因?yàn)楣步ㄖo人們創(chuàng)造了場(chǎng)所去會(huì)面、去享受、去形成都市生活。都市化是一個(gè)很有趣的概念，讓人們生活在一起，彼此相互了解。這就是我們口中的“公共建筑”，就像你們參與的哥倫比亞大學(xué)項(xiàng)目和亞眠項(xiàng)目一樣。龍山項(xiàng)目（韓國龍山某多用途地標(biāo)建筑項(xiàng)目，2011年開始設(shè)計(jì)——譯者注）不是公共項(xiàng)目，倫敦橋大廈項(xiàng)目（英國倫敦夏德大廈和附屬建筑項(xiàng)目，2005年開始設(shè)計(jì)，目前正在施工——譯者注）也不是公共建筑，但是它們都有一種公共化的趨勢(shì)。倫敦橋大廈將會(huì)有很多訪客，但是他們并不會(huì)是自己開車來，因?yàn)榇髲B只有42個(gè)公共停車位。我們的概念就是將很多功能放入一個(gè)豎向的城市中，這是一個(gè)非常好的概念。這就是我們喜歡設(shè)計(jì)公共建筑的原因，因?yàn)樗鼈兓貞?yīng)了把城市變得更加宜居的烏托邦的理想。

S:一般來說，如何開始一項(xiàng)設(shè)計(jì)呢？最先進(jìn)入腦海的是什么？

R: 我們從來不從一個(gè)單一的因素開始設(shè)計(jì)，而是從探索中開始設(shè)計(jì)：我們探討功能，探討城市，探討夢(mèng)想。建筑是一個(gè)科學(xué)和技術(shù)的結(jié)合體，當(dāng)然也和詩意息息相關(guān)，對(duì)光線的感受等等。建筑和社會(huì)相關(guān)，也和創(chuàng)造能被人們享受的空間有關(guān)。所以，我們從來不從單一的元素出發(fā)，我們每時(shí)每刻都在同時(shí)考慮很多元素，在不同設(shè)計(jì)因素中轉(zhuǎn)換思維，不斷穿梭，就像地鐵一樣。不過有一點(diǎn)是肯定的，我們絕對(duì)不能從某種形狀的草圖開始設(shè)計(jì)概念，這是錯(cuò)誤的，會(huì)讓我們掉進(jìn)形式主義的陷阱。重要的是理解，我們得到的方案是從不斷掙扎中獲得的。有人說，這就像在黑暗中看東西。在黑暗中看東西，開始的時(shí)候什么也看不到，但是過上一會(huì)兒漸漸就能看到了。今晚你就試試把自己關(guān)在黑暗的房間里，開始的時(shí)候看不到東西，過一會(huì)兒就開始能看見一些東西的輪廓。同樣的道理，在概念設(shè)計(jì)的時(shí)候，你絕不能一蹴而就，而是要去學(xué)會(huì)在黑暗中探索。一段時(shí)間之后，答案就會(huì)出現(xiàn)在你眼前。我說的這些不是僅僅關(guān)于形式的問題，而是關(guān)乎一種方法。如果你構(gòu)思的時(shí)候，隨手畫一點(diǎn)什么，就認(rèn)定這就是方案，那就大錯(cuò)特錯(cuò)了。

S:相比其他一些建筑師，您對(duì)于細(xì)部和材料的研究更加深入。您覺得這樣做的重要性是什么？

R: 我們更多地研究材料和細(xì)部，因?yàn)檫@是一個(gè)建筑的起始，同時(shí)也是一個(gè)建筑的結(jié)束。建筑始于建造。不過就我個(gè)人來說，我注意材料的運(yùn)用也是因?yàn)槲页錾诮ㄔ焐痰募彝?，?jīng)常接觸建筑材料。

事實(shí)上，這并不取決于你的出發(fā)點(diǎn)是什么，你總會(huì)最終把各種因素綜合考慮。有時(shí)候，我們也常?；貧w自然。你可以從細(xì)部和材料出發(fā)，然后發(fā)展到某種詩意的創(chuàng)造，當(dāng)然也可以直接從詩意出發(fā)，不過終究都會(huì)和建筑材料打交道。而后者的選擇更加困難一些。所以，我們最好從能觸及的部分出發(fā)，再深入到不能觸及的部分，從容易控制的部分出發(fā)，最后才到不易把握的部分。

S:所以有時(shí)候材料也能成為概念的一部分嗎？

R: 對(duì)，但并不是概念本身，而是實(shí)現(xiàn)概念的基礎(chǔ)，材料是一種保障。通過材料，比如木頭、鋼材、玻璃和混凝土，設(shè)計(jì)師在編制設(shè)計(jì)語言的基礎(chǔ)。這個(gè)解釋非常專業(yè)，不過你應(yīng)該能理解。這不僅僅關(guān)于材料或者概念，而是關(guān)于設(shè)計(jì)過程中的方方面面。這非常有趣，我們的職業(yè)本身就是把物質(zhì)性的東西轉(zhuǎn)化為某種靈性的東西，或者說理想中的東西，這是一種結(jié)合，非常復(fù)雜，不過這和制作一部電影沒什么兩樣，都是這種轉(zhuǎn)化的實(shí)踐操作：制作一部電影的時(shí)候，我們也會(huì)捕獲各種材料，然后把它們拼接在一起。建筑是在回應(yīng)需求的，同時(shí)也在回應(yīng)理想，這并不簡(jiǎn)單。

S:在您的作品中，我們看到您在創(chuàng)造空間的時(shí)候注重自然因素，這是您的一個(gè)設(shè)計(jì)哲學(xué)嗎？

R: 自然，的確。因?yàn)槲覑圩匀?，也因?yàn)樽匀皇墙ㄖ膶?duì)立面，而建筑是我們的職業(yè)。自然固然是自然，而我們是理性的人，應(yīng)該完成我們自己的職業(yè)。自然的確不錯(cuò)，但是如果我們不去保護(hù)自己，自然也會(huì)傷害我們，所以建筑也是制造遮蔽物的藝術(shù)，如果沒有遮蔽，我們?cè)谌绱诵膼鄣淖匀恢猩踔翢o法生存。這是一個(gè)很崇高的職業(yè)。這就是為什么我們和自然呈現(xiàn)某種斗爭(zhēng)的關(guān)系，我們玩味自然并與其斗爭(zhēng)的同時(shí)也享受自然，這是一場(chǎng)持久的戰(zhàn)斗。不過無論如何，我們身處自然，無法回避自然。

S:因此在您的作品中，那些玻璃墻和玻璃屋頂，也是在獲取自然景色。

R: 對(duì)，這也是和自然呼應(yīng)的一種方式。

S:除了通過自然光之外，我們還有別的方式感知自然嗎？

R: 這很難說，光線是最重要的一種方式，當(dāng)然這并不是唯一方法。我暫時(shí)沒法說出其他方式。自然是一種永恒的圖景，但是我們的工作并不是要去追求自然，而是要追求我們自身的需求。這不僅僅關(guān)乎自然，自然會(huì)傷害人類。當(dāng)然我十分熱愛自然。我們就像水手，熱愛航行，但是如果不加小心，大海也是致命的。我們熱愛自然還有一個(gè)原因，因?yàn)槲覀兛吹降氖瞧淠転槲覀兯玫囊幻?，而那些未?jīng)加工和馴化的自然，的確很美，但是之后又能如何呢？人們需要在自然中留下他們工作的某種印記，我們不斷玩味和工作，因?yàn)榱粝逻@些印記也是一項(xiàng)很難的任務(wù)。我們要保持自我，自然是自然，而我們是一些心懷夢(mèng)想的理智的人，這才是我們的工作。

S:有時(shí)候?yàn)榱俗尳ㄖ佑腥ず透哌m應(yīng)性，您喜歡用一些機(jī)械原件或者工業(yè)元素，而非傳統(tǒng)的建筑元素。這是您的一個(gè)特點(diǎn)嗎？

R: 喜歡機(jī)械元素是我的個(gè)人愛好。我成長(zhǎng)的城市有巨大的海港、大船和火車。某種意義上，那是一種個(gè)人世界，每個(gè)人都有一個(gè)世界，我想也有人成長(zhǎng)在密布竹林的環(huán)境中，你在哪里長(zhǎng)大？北京么？

S:不，不過臨近北京。

R: 如果要是有人在竹林中長(zhǎng)大，他也會(huì)喜歡竹子的。有人說，當(dāng)時(shí)10歲大的時(shí)候，你的記憶正在吸收身邊的事情。而人生剩下的部分都會(huì)潛移默化受到這些記憶的影響。我們?cè)?0歲之前可能都很難意識(shí)到這一點(diǎn)。所以你還需要成長(zhǎng)，你什么時(shí)候50歲？你今年多大呢？

S:23歲。

R: 那50歲是你的兩倍多。不過，你到50歲的時(shí)候就會(huì)慢慢明白這些。這是真的，這是一種記憶，一種遺傳物質(zhì)。這些并無關(guān)你的理性，而是一種自我意識(shí)。不過我的確沒法說清為什么喜歡機(jī)械，也許在我小時(shí)候，我就對(duì)這些機(jī)械——飛機(jī)、升降機(jī)、輪船什么的充滿興趣和熱情，而這些都被保留在想像中。

S:一些建筑帶有強(qiáng)烈的建筑師個(gè)人風(fēng)格，但是您的作品不同，它們形式多樣、因地制宜。您覺得什么才是一個(gè)好的建筑作品？

R: 讓建筑成為一個(gè)好的職業(yè)的原因并不是個(gè)人風(fēng)格。每一個(gè)項(xiàng)目都像一次探險(xiǎn)，當(dāng)你設(shè)計(jì)亞眠項(xiàng)目的時(shí)候，它和哥倫比亞大學(xué)項(xiàng)目或者龍山項(xiàng)目就如此不同。如果每次的創(chuàng)作都墨守一種方式，不斷自我重復(fù)，那一定是愚蠢的！這就像寫作一樣，寫作之前你會(huì)到處走走，直到你覺得自己知道如何下筆。一位好的電影導(dǎo)演也從來不會(huì)把愛情片拍得和冒險(xiǎn)片或者戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)電影一樣，這些都是不同的語言。所以，如果你仔細(xì)辨別人們?cè)诓煌胤降牟煌袨椋憔妥匀荒苷业讲煌姆绞?。建筑師很容易陷入這樣的陷阱：當(dāng)他們變得成功之后，就不斷自我重復(fù)。他們會(huì)覺得既然已經(jīng)很成功了又何必非要改變呢，所以他們不斷重復(fù)，人們也會(huì)要求他們重復(fù)。這便成了一種自我參考，這樣你就喪失了自由。非?？上?，因?yàn)樽杂墒墙ㄖ焺?chuàng)作的最寶貴的材料，不僅僅指別人給的自由，也指自己給自己的自由，絕不能固步自封。我們的職業(yè)很不同，如果你能跟隨自然，那就一定能設(shè)計(jì)出不一樣的東西。這并不是說一定要建些新奇的建筑，而是要建些誠實(shí)的建筑。這并不是指語言，語言和風(fēng)格是在不斷重復(fù)中提煉的，就像一個(gè)印章，能讓人識(shí)別，而建筑設(shè)計(jì)更加嚴(yán)肅。創(chuàng)造力是一些需要?jiǎng)?chuàng)造的行業(yè)中最重要的東西，不管你是畫家、音樂家還是建筑師，都需要?jiǎng)?chuàng)造，需要整合，需要嚴(yán)整。你不能通過隨心所欲而到達(dá)成功，而是需要一種社會(huì)意義上或者精神意義上的詩意的整合，需要有一個(gè)目標(biāo)。這也和職業(yè)道德息息相關(guān)，說到底建筑設(shè)計(jì)的出發(fā)點(diǎn)都各不相同，如果你能始終追尋自然，也許就能找到一些不一樣的東西。這并不是缺乏創(chuàng)造力，而是一種責(zé)任感。

R: 其實(shí)并非如此，我并不是對(duì)這些項(xiàng)目有特別的愛好，而是它們真的很有趣。另外，我并不認(rèn)為項(xiàng)目旁邊有一個(gè)重要的建筑會(huì)讓設(shè)計(jì)變得更難。實(shí)際上，我們反而有了更多的可能性。說到自由，人們往往認(rèn)為要毫無束縛的設(shè)計(jì)就要完全的自由，就在一片空地上設(shè)計(jì)，什么都能做，但那實(shí)際上是個(gè)災(zāi)難。沒有自由讓你遇到麻煩，因?yàn)槟悴恢缽暮稳胧?，然而從某種意義上，這也能幫助我們，你能理解城市而不是漫無目的地探索。在金貝爾、惠特尼、加德納或者朗香教堂旁邊，這些項(xiàng)目的基地周邊都是著名建筑，我們?cè)O(shè)計(jì)要做的事情就是去進(jìn)行某種回應(yīng)，就像對(duì)話一樣。并不是我偏愛這些項(xiàng)目，而是當(dāng)他們遇到麻煩無從下手的時(shí)候會(huì)來委托我們進(jìn)行設(shè)計(jì)。

S:當(dāng)您在一個(gè)著名建筑旁邊設(shè)計(jì)新建筑的時(shí)候，有競(jìng)爭(zhēng)的感覺嗎？

R: 如果去競(jìng)爭(zhēng)，一定是愚蠢的。你最近去過朗香教堂嗎？

S:去過。

R: （在這個(gè)項(xiàng)目中）我們要做的是一種互補(bǔ)，而不是競(jìng)爭(zhēng)，我們要換一種敘事方式。競(jìng)爭(zhēng)是愚蠢的，我們應(yīng)該做一些不同的事情，可以講一個(gè)完全不一樣的故事?？虏嘉饕诶氏阒v的故事是在山頂?shù)囊蛔袼埽覀冎v的故事完全不同：是關(guān)于寂靜、關(guān)于交融和光的故事，完全不同。我們必須找到自己生存的方式，而不是擠在同樣的思路里。在金貝爾美術(shù)館加建項(xiàng)目中，舊金貝爾美術(shù)館是由路易斯·康設(shè)計(jì)的，我非常喜歡這個(gè)建筑，但是這座建筑太過封閉。所以我們所做的恰恰相反，新館的設(shè)計(jì)是開放的、參與性的、透明的。

S:技術(shù)革命往往帶給建筑形式和建筑哲學(xué)很大變化，比如工業(yè)革命帶來了現(xiàn)代主義。您認(rèn)為計(jì)算機(jī)技術(shù)革命帶給建筑設(shè)計(jì)的最大機(jī)遇和挑戰(zhàn)是什么呢？

R: 我并不認(rèn)為計(jì)算機(jī)技術(shù)帶來了太多的不同，它固然讓工作更有效率，卻也讓錯(cuò)誤犯得更快。我覺得計(jì)算機(jī)技術(shù)和畫筆之間并沒有太大不同，畫筆來源于思想，有時(shí)更快、更有效率。計(jì)算機(jī)技術(shù)和靈感無關(guān)，如果計(jì)算機(jī)技術(shù)成為了靈感的來源就太糟糕了，就變成了形式主義。我覺得，現(xiàn)在最大的問題并不是這個(gè)，而是地球本身的脆弱。我們都知道，地球是脆弱的，歐洲明白得早一些，現(xiàn)在美國也開始理解這個(gè)問題。中國正在爆炸式發(fā)展，需要更多資源，中國人也開始明白，走美國發(fā)展的道路不是可持續(xù)發(fā)展，因?yàn)槊绹司Y源占有率比中國高10倍，比意大利高3倍。我認(rèn)為，地球環(huán)境的脆弱性也許能帶來更多機(jī)遇，理想上我們應(yīng)該設(shè)計(jì)些對(duì)環(huán)境更加友好的“可以呼吸的”建筑。這并不是負(fù)面的束縛，而是很好的靈感來源。

S:您似乎對(duì)加建項(xiàng)目非常感興趣，比如惠特尼美術(shù)館加建、金貝爾美術(shù)館加建、加德納博物館加建、還有朗香教堂項(xiàng)目。這些項(xiàng)目有什么特別原因吸引您嗎？

每個(gè)世紀(jì)我們都會(huì)經(jīng)歷革命，我認(rèn)為這個(gè)世紀(jì)，建筑的靈感來源不應(yīng)該是激進(jìn)或者攻擊性的，而應(yīng)該是交融的和可以呼吸代謝的。我用呼吸代謝這個(gè)詞，是因?yàn)槲艺J(rèn)為建筑是可以呼吸的，我們?cè)诼迳即壍捻?xiàng)目（美國洛杉磯市科學(xué)院，2008年）就能呼吸。實(shí)際上，所有的建筑都在呼吸，就連朗香的小建筑也在呼吸。人們應(yīng)該更好地利用建筑的呼吸能力，更好地利用太陽，更好地利用朝向，讓建筑變得更加智能。這些就是靈感的來源，我們不該把這些當(dāng)成消極因素來對(duì)待。一個(gè)顯而易見的消極因素也會(huì)變成機(jī)遇，我覺得這很好。

當(dāng)然，計(jì)算機(jī)技術(shù)改變了速度，但是并非靈感，計(jì)算機(jī)只是一個(gè)工具。而靈感性的東西是其他的東西，是建造技術(shù)、是世界的復(fù)雜性、是地球的脆弱，靈感不會(huì)來源于工具。計(jì)算機(jī)是好的，但是我們決不能過分依賴計(jì)算機(jī)，否則就會(huì)掉進(jìn)某種陷阱?，F(xiàn)在有一種像鋼琴的樂器，就算你不會(huì)彈琴，它也能發(fā)出優(yōu)美的聲音。就像在KTV唱歌，就算你唱得很差，聲音聽上去也很好。我并不是說計(jì)算機(jī)不好，我覺得計(jì)算機(jī)很好，但是這和靈感無關(guān)。計(jì)算機(jī)只是提供給人一個(gè)更好用的工具，然而通過工具說了什么，是好還是壞，并不取決于工具。建筑的靈感就像冰山一角，你能看到的只是水上很小的一部分，但是水下藏著大得多的部分?？吹靡姷牟糠质顷P(guān)乎形式的，而看不見的是一些其他因素：技術(shù)因素、社會(huì)因素、政策因素等等。

而今的當(dāng)務(wù)之急是關(guān)注脆弱的地球，我們沒法回避這一點(diǎn)，保護(hù)地球是我們的職責(zé)所在。曾經(jīng)沒有人關(guān)注這一點(diǎn)，而現(xiàn)在人們開始需要了。我覺得這才是現(xiàn)在帶給我們的機(jī)遇。

S:在這里的工作方法讓我印象深刻，受益匪淺。我注意到制作手工模型仍然是一個(gè)非常重要的方法，您能告訴我們關(guān)注手工作業(yè)的重要性何在嗎？這樣的做法真的會(huì)讓我們受益嗎？

R: 什么樣的工具比我們的雙手更好呢？看看這些關(guān)節(jié)。我覺得有時(shí)候手會(huì)比思維更迅速。我有些音樂家朋友，他們演奏小提琴或者彈鋼琴的時(shí)候完全不會(huì)思考，他們的手比腦更快。我還認(rèn)識(shí)一些作家，他們寫作的時(shí)候只是不停地寫，根本不知道這個(gè)段落會(huì)如何結(jié)束。手與腦，有時(shí)候手更快，有時(shí)候腦更快。而且你的思維已經(jīng)融入工具的不精確中了，這種不精確是必要的，不然你就會(huì)開始人云亦云了，這就是這種不精確的意義所在。計(jì)算機(jī)繪圖會(huì)非?？膳拢?yàn)樗鼈兙_無誤地呈現(xiàn)一些事情。但是草圖就不會(huì)，草圖是不確定的，如果在計(jì)算機(jī)中畫線，必須要精確地確定點(diǎn)的位置，所有的信息都準(zhǔn)確極了，而手工作業(yè)卻能帶給你不確定的價(jià)值。不精確對(duì)創(chuàng)作很有意義，當(dāng)你要做一個(gè)決定的時(shí)候，并非一下子決定所有的細(xì)節(jié)，而是會(huì)經(jīng)歷漫長(zhǎng)的思考，才會(huì)逐漸發(fā)現(xiàn)答案。所以精確的東西是最后才得出來的，而并非一開始。我很享受這種漫步的過程，一開始思路并不清晰，逐漸變得清晰起來，最后我才會(huì)抵達(dá)終點(diǎn)，不過也說不定中間就走丟了。

S:您的基金會(huì)給世界各地的建筑學(xué)生提供了實(shí)習(xí)和旅行的機(jī)會(huì)，你認(rèn)為成長(zhǎng)為一名杰出建筑師最有價(jià)值的經(jīng)歷是什么呢？您能從自己的經(jīng)歷中給我們一些建議嗎？

R: 這其實(shí)并不關(guān)乎你從哪里來，而更關(guān)乎一種激情。建筑是一種結(jié)合的藝術(shù)，也是斗爭(zhēng)的藝術(shù)。我不斷在說，當(dāng)我們?cè)诤胶５臅r(shí)候，如果不小心偏差了一度，那每10分鐘，這一度的誤差都會(huì)把你帶向更遠(yuǎn)的歧途。你們這個(gè)年齡一定要小心，不要走上錯(cuò)誤的道路。

S:如何才能找到正確的道路呢？

R: 你最終一定能找到的，激情會(huì)指引方向，你只需要保持方向。正確的方向并不一定是看上去最清晰的方向，也不一定是你正在看的方向，也許是一些其他的道路，很遺憾，我沒法直接告訴你答案。正確的方向就像內(nèi)心深處的愛一樣，是很內(nèi)在的東西。

日常的生活會(huì)磨滅一個(gè)人，會(huì)磨滅所有東西，如果沒有選擇正確的道路，就會(huì)十分不幸，我們要敢于對(duì)一些東西說不。

S:我從中國來，很想聽聽您對(duì)于中國建筑的看法。您曾經(jīng)來過中國，能談?wù)剬?duì)于中國建筑的印象么？您認(rèn)為中國建筑應(yīng)該是什么樣的，您以后打算參與中國建筑項(xiàng)目嗎？

R: 事務(wù)所目前的確沒有中國項(xiàng)目，這是因?yàn)槲覀兿纫砰_時(shí)間才行，有時(shí)候他們（中國客戶）來的時(shí)候我們恰好很忙，有時(shí)候他們會(huì)委托一些過大的項(xiàng)目，曾經(jīng)有一次他們希望我們?cè)谝荒臧氲臅r(shí)間內(nèi)設(shè)計(jì)一座供15萬人使用的大廈，這根本無法辦到，問題是他們又說不用完全設(shè)計(jì)好，給我們一張草圖就可以了，這當(dāng)然不可能，這就是問題所在。我當(dāng)然希望我們能有中國項(xiàng)目，也許我們會(huì)有。我對(duì)中國的了解并不多，我去過上海、北京，曾經(jīng)還打算參與奧運(yùn)會(huì)的項(xiàng)目設(shè)計(jì)。我當(dāng)然希望能在中國做些什么，但是我們的工作方法是希望能設(shè)計(jì)所有的細(xì)節(jié)，說到底還是需要客戶的理解才行。

S:那您能談?wù)剬?duì)于中國建筑的印象嗎？

R: 這很難說，我從報(bào)紙上看到，有時(shí)候即使是商業(yè)項(xiàng)目設(shè)計(jì)也并非都不好，我更加了解中國古代建筑。當(dāng)發(fā)展很快的時(shí)候必然會(huì)經(jīng)歷這樣的階段，北京、上海充斥著各種建筑，不過我還是不回答這個(gè)問題比較好，我的答案也肯定人云亦云。

S:您已經(jīng)贏得了很多獎(jiǎng)項(xiàng)，比如英國皇家建筑金獎(jiǎng)、普利茲克獎(jiǎng)、美國建筑協(xié)會(huì)金獎(jiǎng)等等。您認(rèn)為，這些成就更多代表了建筑師本人的成就還是對(duì)于建筑界未來方向的一種預(yù)測(cè)呢？

R: 當(dāng)?shù)轿疫@個(gè)年齡的時(shí)候，即便只是待著也會(huì)獲獎(jiǎng)。我覺得這些獎(jiǎng)項(xiàng)的確在預(yù)測(cè)方向，但是很遺憾，這個(gè)職業(yè)變得越來越像一種時(shí)尚，有太多明星。我不是明星，但是有些人就會(huì)這樣認(rèn)為。有時(shí)候建筑行業(yè)甚至變得像珠寶一樣閃光，而這是最令人遺憾的事情。我贏得了很多獎(jiǎng)?wù)拢啾阮A(yù)測(cè)未來，這些獎(jiǎng)項(xiàng)更多是授予建筑師本人的。不過人和人也不盡相同，比如，弗蘭克·蓋里就更像一個(gè)藝術(shù)家，他達(dá)到目的的方法獨(dú)辟蹊徑，但也非常好。所以，這其實(shí)很有趣，所謂建筑發(fā)展的方向并不是一個(gè)限制，而是還有很多不同方向，但是永恒的元素是激情。我并不會(huì)依照那些獎(jiǎng)項(xiàng)預(yù)示的方向去做事，而是要找到屬于自己的道路，這不僅要依靠實(shí)踐還要依靠夢(mèng)想和信念。建筑的主題一直是關(guān)于驚訝和出人意料的，當(dāng)你看到一個(gè)建筑，你可能認(rèn)同或者并不認(rèn)同它，然而這都已經(jīng)是一種驚訝，你會(huì)感到震驚、瘋狂、驚訝或者從中認(rèn)出什么。有時(shí)候這就像駕駛一輛機(jī)械一樣。建筑決不能讓人感到無聊和厭煩，即使你做出再好的工作，如果它是無聊的，那也一錢不值，你需要一種魔力。這很難解釋，靈感有時(shí)候來源于太陽、光線，有時(shí)候是一種難以言喻的美。有時(shí)候我們會(huì)很接近美，但是美是一種可以嘗試接近卻永遠(yuǎn)沒法真正抵達(dá)的境界，這一點(diǎn)我們應(yīng)該牢記?！?/p>

SUN Chenguang(S):Thanks for providing us an opportunity to be here, gaining a world-wide sight and learning different knowledge. Every project in this office is really a masterpiece with deep study.Recently some new projects opened and I think it is the right time to know something more personally from you as well as share with others, which helps us understand these.

Why do you like to design public buildings or public structure?

Renzo Piano(R): This is true. Actually 80 percent projects in our office are public buildings. Like culture facilities, concert halls, Opera house,library. There is an answer simple, that public buildings are ones that makes the miracle of making better cities. That city when you make a public building that is well done, a place for people, they transform the city to a better place to live. It is not because they are important, but when you make a good university, like we are doing in Columbia University or in Amiens, what you do is you create a place that for centuries will fertilize the life of the city. This is why cities are so interesting,because they are a place of civilization. Actually the word "city" is also coming from "Civitas", in it city and civilization have the same roots. So it is very simple, the public buildings are in a lot of ways benign because they create a place for, to meet,to enjoy, to create an urban life. Urbanity is a very interesting idea, it's about staying together, people understanding each other. That is the reason when we say public building, (addresses interns) like you are working on Amiens and you on Columbia, the Yongsan tower is not a public building, like the Shard tower in London is not a public building, but it has kind of a public intention. It has a lot of people coming, but they don't come by car, the Shard has only 42 car parking spaces. This idea of a vertical city with so many functions in one building, it's a good idea. So this is the reason why we like the public buildings, because they answer to the utopia of making city a better place.

S:In general, how do you start a design? What comes into your mind first?

R: You know we never start from one thing, we start by exploring, we talk about the function, we talk about the city, and we talk about dreaming.Architecture is a mix of science and technology, but of course it is much about poetry, sense of light or whatever. Something about society, aboutcreating places people can enjoy. So you never start from one thing. You start thinking about something and then at the same time, in the same day, in the same hour, you switch into something else and you keep crossing otherwise it's too simple. One thing is for sure that you should never start to scheme by

sketching a shape, because this is wrong, because then you fall into a trap of formalism. So it is always more important to understand that you have to come to a solution through a little struggle.Somebody said that it is a bit like watching in the dark, you know. Watching in the dark, for a while you don't see anything, then after a while, you start to see. Tonight, close yourself in our room in the dark, in the beginning you don't see anything,after a while, you start to see things, the profile of things. This is the same, so in making a scheme you should never jump on something, you have to accept to watch in dark. Then after a while things come to you. This that I am saying is not form, it's about making. These I am saying is not about form. Not form anyway. If you sketch, if you draw something,and you say "this is it", then you falling into a trap.S:Compared to many other architects, you pay more attention to the details and materials study,why do you think it is important?

R: We pay more attentions to details and materials because this is where architecture starts. It is someway where architecture ends, because architecturestarts from building, making a building.And in my personal story, of course, I have this because I grew up in a family of builders, the materials were always present.

But the reality is it doesn't matter where

you start, but you have to come to an end to the complexity of things coming together. And sometimes you have to come to nature. You may start from detail, material, and then go to poetry.You can also start from poetry if you prefer, but with one condition, you have tomeet with material.It is more difficult. It's much better to start from the tangible and arrive at the intangible. You come to the untouching part. To start with the measurable then you end by the immeasurable.

S:So sometimes the material is something about the concept?

R: Oh yes, but it is not a concept, it is a promise of the concept. The material is really a kind of promise. In the material, in the wood, in the steel,in the glass, in the concrete, you are really making the promise of the language. It is quite professional I guess you understood this. It is not about the material, or just about ideas, it is about everything together. It is funny. You have to understand that this profession is about switching from materiality to spirituality, to dreaming. It's a funny combination.It is quite complicated,but it is not different from making cinema, film making, or other things: always about practicalities, capturing materials you find and then putting together. Architecture is really about answering need, but it is also about answering desires. And it is not easy.

S:In your works we can see that you often focus nature in making a space, is that one of your design philosophies?

R: Nature, yes, because I love nature, and also because nature is the opposite of the architecture.Architecture is our job. Nature is nature, and we are from early times in a type of Prometheus challenge of doing our job. Nature is fine, but nature will kill you if you don't protect yourself. That is why architecture is the art of making shelter, a good shelter for the human being. If you don't make a shelter, you cannot survive in nature, the so beloved nature. This is very noble. That is why we are kind of antagonists with nature. You play, you fight against nature and at the same time you enjoy with nature. It is the constant battle of nature. Anyway,nature is where we come from, we cannot escape it.

S:So in your design, we can see the glass walls that in some way capture the nature views

R: Yes, it is one way to flirt with nature.

S:Do we have another way to capture nature,except for the natural light?

R: It is difficult to answer, you know light is probably one of the most important things, but it is not the only one. I don't know I mean I guess a few. I have no idea. Nature is a kind of constant graphics,but our job is not to be natural, our job is to be ourselves. That is not just nature, nature kills you.Frankly, it is not nature. It is fine, I love nature. I am sailor, I love sailing but in the sea, if you are not careful, it can kill you. And also the nature we love in our lives is the one we have domesticated.The undomesticated is beautiful, but after a while you say yes it is beautiful, and then what? Humanbeings need a kind of imprint of their work on nature. That is why the imprint is a kind of difficult task, because it is a constant game, nature is nature and we have to be ourselves. We have to be ourselves. Nature is nature, and we are rational people with a great pleasure in dreaming, and that is our job.

S:To make architecture more interesting and flexible, you like to use some mechanization or industrial elements, not only traditional building elements, Is that one of your characteristics?

R: Oh mechanization because this is my personal story. I grew up in a city with a big harbor, with big ships, trains, it's a world, everybody has a world.People is a world, I guess that somebody that has been growing in a forest of bamboo. Where have you been growing, in Beijing city?

S:No, but near to Beijing.

R: If you grow up in a forest of bamboo, you will like that thing. Somebody said that when you are ten years old, you really have to absorb your essence in memory. And you have to spend the rest of our life digging in that memory. You will only start to understand this when you are fifty years old. So you have to go. When will you be fifty, what age you are?

S:Twenty three.

R: Wow, it's nearly double. Then you will be fifty then you start to understand, but it's true. I mean it is a kind of memory, or DNA. It's not something rational, it's subconscious. Anyway I have no answer to this question of mechanization but except maybe when I can say that when I was a child, when I was passionate by mechanics, by cranes, by lifting,by boats, by ships, all these,they remain in the imagination.

S:Some buildings indicate a strong sense of the architect's personal style, but your design works are different, they are in various forms, and usually designed in terms of local conditions. In your opinion, what makes a good design product?

R: This is what makes architecture a great profession is not style. Every time is anadventure. It is really like, when you make a building like Amiens,it's so different from Columbia or Yongson. You must be stupid to create things in the same way.You must be really stupid to repeat yourself you know, it is like writing.Beforewrite you walk, yougo around you understand howyou can make it. A good film maker doesn't make a love movie the same as an adventure movie or war movie.It's a kind of different language. So if you distinguish carefully for people play differently in different places, but what you can get is different by nature. This is one of the traps to architects, when they become successful,they repeat themselves: because it is successful why I have to change it, so they repeat. People ask them to repeat. So it becomes a kind of selfreferential. And you ruin the freedom.It is a pity because freedom is the most valuable material for architects. It is freedom with other people but also freedom of us. You cannot close yourself in a kind of situation when you have to show who you are. Our job is so different. If you just follow nature then you will come up with something different.It is like not a building to build it eclectic, is more about being honest. This is different form language, Language or style is something else. A style is something when you repeat yourself, is like a stamp, so you understand that's it. Architecture and language are different. That is more serious. Creation is one of the most important things in aneclectic profession.

It doesn't matter if when you are a painter or a musician or if you an architect whatever, you need creative, you need integrative, you need align, you cannot do this freely looking for success. You need a kind of social, mental poetic integrating you need to aim or something. I think it is about ethics. I think at the end the essentials are so different, if you just follow the nature, you need a different job or get something different. This is not a lack of creative.This is because you want be responsible.

S:It seems that you are interested in expansion projects, like expansion to the Whitney, the Kimbell,the Gardner and the Ronchamp Chapel. Are there any special reasons attract you in these projects?R: No it's not true. I am not interested in it but it is interesting. But at the same time I don't feel that have an important building on the side makes things more difficult. Actually you have anextra possibility.But talking about freedom that sometimes people believe that to be eclectic you must have total freedom, nothing, just a piece of land, do whatever you like. It is a disaster, when you have no freedom you are in trouble because you don't know where to start from. But in some way it helps. Because instead of explore things wherever are you, you know what is a city. When you have thing like a Kimbell, Whitney, Gardner or Ronchamp by both

sides we have famous building. All things we do are about response in some way, like answering, like a dialogue to dialogue. It is a dialogue. Don't believe I prefer, but for some reason they call us because they have trouble. When they are in shit they call us.

S:Do you have any feeling that when you build a new building beside a very famous one, you are competing with the old one?

R: If you compete you must be stupid. Have you ever been to Ronchamp recently?

S:Yes, I have.

R: Instead of competing, what you have to do is a kind of complementally. You have to tell another story. It is stupid to go fighting, you do something else. You can just tell a different story. Le Corbusier in Ronchamp made the story that was a sculpture in the top of hill, and we made the story completely different. It is about silence, it's about intersection,is about light. It is completely different. We have to find our way to survive. So Kimbell, which we know is from Louis Kahn, I like that building, but it's really restrained, likea room closed. So what we are doing is the other way, is open. So the building is accessible, open and transparent.

S:The technological revolution has brought manychanges in philosophy and architectural form,such as the industrial revolution has brought the modernism. What do you think is the biggest challenges and opportunities of architecture design in computer technology revolution?

R: I don't think computer technology changes that much. Of course it makes things faster.It also makes it faster to make mistakes. I don't see computer technology much different from pen. Pen is from mental, is faster and more efficient. It is not about the inspiration, if the technology becomes a kind of inspiration it becomes very bad. Because it's very formalist, I think the bigger and bigger issue should not be this, maybe the fragility of earth. In fact that the earth is fragile,all the people understand that.Europe have understood this maybe before,now America. Your country is exploding, so you need energy. Also Chinese is understanding that it's nonsustainable through way the American did. Because American is assuming ten time more energy by person than China, or three times more than Italy.I think this fragility of the earth is probably the opportunity. So ideally we can build in a way that buildings breath, buildings are more sensitive to the environment. It is not negative, is a great source for inspiration.

So every century we have got a kind of revolution. I think this century, the inspiration to the idea of architecture should not beaggressive,should be more intension and breath. I use the word breath because I think architecture can breathe, the San Francisco California breathe.But all the building breathe, even the little Ron champ. It's kind of exchange they make better use of breath, they make better use of sun, they make better use of rotation, they becoming more intelligent. This is creating the source of inspiration.In one condition that you don't take it like negative,it's not something that you should concern like shit.An obligation negative will become an opportunity. I think this is fine.

Of course that computer technology changes the speed, it is not inspiration, computer is an instrument. What is inspirational is something else.It is construction technology, it is the complications of the world, is the fragility of the earth. Inspiration comes from something else, inspiration doesn't come from instrument. Computer is fine, but you should not reply on it too much otherwise you fall into a trap. You know that now there is something like a piano that can play beautifully even you cannot play. Just like in a Karaoke, in the karaoke

you are bad to sing but the sound is beautiful. I am not saying that computers are bad, I think they are good. But it's not inspiration, computer just providing you a better instrument but what you say, it's good or not. You see? This phone you use to do something, but what they say, it doesn't change. The Inspiration is what I tell you, is not coming from instrument. Architecture inspiration is like the invisible part of the ice. What you see is a small piece, but underneath is the ice that all hide. The nonvisible part is something else: it is the knowledge, the society, the politic, etc.

The first thing is the earth, you cannot refuse it, earth is our job, nobody would need them at one time, but now we need them. So I think this is the one thing brings the opportunity

S:The working methods inspired me a lot during the time I worked here. I noticed that the manual work plays an important role. Can you tell me the reason of focusing on hands on work? How is it benefiting us?

R: Which instrument is better than the hands?Looking at the articulations! I think because sometimes hands go faster than minds. I have friends, who are musicians, when they play violin or they play piano they don't think. Their hands are quicker than minds. And also I have, some writer, they just writing on phases they don't know how the phases will end, but they write.Sometimes the combination between this and that is quite magic, sometimes hands go faster, and sometimes mind goes faster. And also your mind is engaged in your instrument imperfection. And imperfection is essential. Because otherwise you do what everybody do. So imperfection is that you can have some reason to do. And this is the reason why sometimes computer drawings are terrible.Because they tell you exactly something. But the sketches don't do that. Sketch is uncertain, if you put a line in the computer you must put a point very precisely and everything become perfect.But sometimes the hands give you the value that is kind of uncertain, imprecision that makes sense to your creation. When you decide something, you never decide all things suddenly all the details,you start to do things that you make a long to do travel around the world, and then you start to see. So precision comes in the end, not in the beginning. For me I enjoy this beautiful Paris city of going through. At the beginning it's not clear,then become more clear. And then and then I will be there, or just maybe I lost at the end.

S:Your foundation provides internship opportunities and travelling scholarships to architecture students all around the world. What kind of experience do you think is the most valuable for an architect to be outstanding? Can you provide some advices from your own experience growing to be a real master?

R: This is not about where you come from. I think this is more about passion, more ethics. Architecture is the art of enjoining, also the art of fighting. What I have to say to everybody, when you sail, if you are not careful, you couldn't sail keeping your precision by one degree, but every ten minutes one degree makes you go to another destination. And this is what happened when you go sailing.When it's in your age, you should be careful, don't go into wrong direction.

S:How to find the right direction?

R: Oh you will find, it's also about passional.So keep the route. The right direction is not searching around in a way which is clear, not the eye way, the right direction maybe something else. Unfortunately I cannot help you. The right direction is something like a secret love inside, is something inside.

Be careful you maybe killed by day by day life,day by day life is killing everything. If something is

wrong, it will kill you. Sometimes you have to say no to something.

S:I am from China, so I really want to hear your opinion about Chinese architecture. You have been to China. Can you tell me your impression about Chinese architecture? What do you think a "Chinese architecture" should be like? Do you have any plans on participating in China's construction projects in the future?

R: No Chinese project for this moment. Firstly we have to arrange the time. Sometimes they came when we are too busy, sometimes they came with a too big project. They want to make a tower for 150 000 people in one year and a half. How you do that? The problem is they say no, no that much,just give us a sketch. This is not possible, so this is the problem. I wish we can have, maybe we will. I know China, not very well but I know, I've been to Shanghai, to Beijing. I may do something I mean of course I wish to do something, but the way we work is that we like to draw every feature. And we have to find somebody can understand us in the end.

S:Can you tell us something your impression about Chinese modern architecture?

R: That's difficult to me to say, what you see on the newspaper, sometimes even it is commercial is not all bad, I know better traditional Chinese architectures. When you grow up fast of course you will do something. Yes Shanghai and Beijing is cities with all kind of architectures, but I prefer not to answer this question, I may tell you something ordinary, so forget it.

S:You have won many prizes so far, the gold medal of RIBA, the Pritzker Prize, and the gold medal of AIA and so on. Personally, do you these prizes stands for the achievement of the architect himself or indicate the future of the whole architecture industry?

R: When you have my age, then you stay like this and it comes. I means yes, it is also indicate the direction. But unfortunately today, this profession is become too much like fashion: too many stars this kind of things. You see me, I am not a star, but people think this. So architecture is sometimes like shiny thing like beauty, jewelry. This is the most unfortunate. Well it is not the case of gold medal, of course I won the medal of AIA and the Pritzker Prize of whatever, and those are more to give people than indicate direction. But you know that people are different, for example there are people like Frank Gehry that is more like an artist. Frank Gerhy is another way to approach things but it is very good. So it is very interesting, sometimes direction of architecture is not just a limit, there are just a number of directions, but the constant element is passion. I will not do what the prize indicates to do.You have to find your own way. The most important thing probably to say is that you have to rely on practicality but also dream. Architecture is always about kind of surprise, amazing. When you see a building and you may agree or disagree but it is all anyway about surprise. You are astonished, amazed,surprised, or you recognize something. Sometimes like driving machines. Architecture should be never boring. So even if you can do a good job, but if it is boring, it doesn't work. You need magic. It is not easy.it is difficult to explain, but the inspiration comes from light, the sun etc. Sometimes it is a kind of beauty, unreachable. You can be very close,but beauty is something you can try but you never reach. So this is something you have to keep in mind.□