采訪：趙晶 同聲翻譯：何以純

左：克里斯蒂安·多布里克；右：鄭曦Left: Christian Dobrick; Right: ZHENG Xi

訪談人物：

（德）克里斯蒂安·多布里克/ West 8城市規(guī)劃與景觀設(shè)計(jì)事務(wù)所項(xiàng)目總監(jiān)、資深風(fēng)景園林師

鄭曦/北京林業(yè)大學(xué)園林學(xué)院教授/研究方向?yàn)轱L(fēng)景園林規(guī)劃設(shè)計(jì)與理論/本刊副主編

Profiles:

(Germany) Christian Dobrick, who is the Senior Project Manager and Senior Landscape Architect at West 8 urban design & landscape architecture in the Netherlands.

ZHENG Xi is the professor at the School of Landscape Architecture, Beijing Forestry University and deputy chief editor of this Journal. His research focuses on landscape planning and design and theory.

克里斯蒂安·多布里克1997年畢業(yè)于德國(guó)埃森大學(xué)并獲景觀建筑碩士學(xué)位，專長(zhǎng)于復(fù)雜城市公共空間領(lǐng)域的景觀設(shè)計(jì)。2000年初，多布里克加入West 8。在 West 8 創(chuàng)始人及設(shè)計(jì)總監(jiān)阿德里安·高伊策的共同指導(dǎo)下，多布里克先生領(lǐng)導(dǎo)了一系列知名的大型城市設(shè)計(jì)和景觀設(shè)計(jì)項(xiàng)目，包括贏得眾多大獎(jiǎng)的西班牙馬德里河岸更新景觀工程和業(yè)內(nèi)極負(fù)聲望的瑞士諾華上海研發(fā)中心總體景觀。

鄭曦是北京林業(yè)大學(xué)園林學(xué)院教授，本刊副主編。2006年畢業(yè)于北京林業(yè)大學(xué)并獲得城市規(guī)劃與設(shè)計(jì)（含風(fēng)景園林）博士學(xué)位后留校任教，主要完成了包括第三屆亞洲沙灘運(yùn)動(dòng)會(huì)主會(huì)場(chǎng)區(qū)景觀工程、煙臺(tái)植物園景觀工程等一系列大型規(guī)劃設(shè)計(jì)項(xiàng)目，以及景觀績(jī)效評(píng)價(jià)、山水城市、綠色綜合體理論框架等相關(guān)研究。

本刊編輯部主任趙晶副教授主持了多布里克先生與鄭曦教授訪談對(duì)話，通過(guò)2名設(shè)計(jì)師的交流和對(duì)話，我們了解到園藝博覽會(huì)對(duì)于風(fēng)景園林等相關(guān)行業(yè)以及對(duì)于城市發(fā)展的推動(dòng)作用。我們需要正視全球化和氣候變化等趨勢(shì)和問(wèn)題帶給風(fēng)景園林的機(jī)遇和挑戰(zhàn)，以更好應(yīng)對(duì)未來(lái)10年風(fēng)景園林相關(guān)行業(yè)領(lǐng)域的挑戰(zhàn)。

LA：《風(fēng)景園林》

Christian：克里斯蒂安·多布里克

ZHENG：鄭曦

LA：因?yàn)?019北京世界園藝博覽會(huì)，我們得以在此相聚。近年來(lái)，各種各樣類型的園藝博覽會(huì)相繼舉辦，并將在不同的國(guó)家舉行。所以我想知道您對(duì)此次在中國(guó)舉辦的博覽會(huì)有什么看法，您認(rèn)為它與其他國(guó)家舉辦的博覽會(huì)有什么區(qū)別？

Christian：由于地域的不同,中國(guó)的園博會(huì)和國(guó)外的最大的區(qū)別在于尺度的不同。但人們對(duì)園林的使用或?qū)@林學(xué)術(shù)上的理解是類似的。本次園博會(huì)的參觀者預(yù)計(jì)達(dá)到1 600萬(wàn)人，這與國(guó)外的情況不同。國(guó)外一般舉行園藝博覽會(huì)的規(guī)模是100～200萬(wàn)人。但是在中國(guó)，我們要面對(duì)的挑戰(zhàn)要大得多，不光要考慮到怎么向這么多人介紹我們的園藝，更要有安保、流線等方面不同尺度的考量。

ZHENG：中國(guó)目前有各個(gè)級(jí)別的園博會(huì)，有已經(jīng)舉辦過(guò)的、正在舉辦的，還有即將舉辦的，所以園博會(huì)在中國(guó)當(dāng)代城市發(fā)展中是一個(gè)非常熱點(diǎn)的話題。其實(shí)中國(guó)有這種集中展示不同類型花園的傳統(tǒng)，叫做集錦式園林，比如圓明園，它希望將全國(guó)各地優(yōu)秀的園林作品匯集在一起。今天中國(guó)各個(gè)城市為舉辦園博會(huì)所建設(shè)的園博園，往往呈現(xiàn)出巨大的尺度，為什么會(huì)這樣呢？我覺(jué)得首先是中國(guó)是一個(gè)發(fā)展中國(guó)家，處于快速城市化進(jìn)程中，需要不斷地進(jìn)行城市建設(shè)，所以園博會(huì)的特點(diǎn)就決定了它是有效推動(dòng)城市規(guī)劃實(shí)施的方式。其最重要的意義就是它的舉辦時(shí)間是固定的，這樣就給建設(shè)方帶來(lái)了巨大的壓力，往往能夠在短時(shí)間內(nèi)推動(dòng)一些平時(shí)不容易實(shí)現(xiàn)的工作快速完成，主辦城市會(huì)協(xié)調(diào)各個(gè)部門，優(yōu)先推動(dòng)項(xiàng)目建設(shè)及相關(guān)基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施的配套完善，以保證能夠按時(shí)開(kāi)幕。所以，園博園就形成了具有高關(guān)注度的、集中力量推進(jìn)的狀態(tài)，成為一個(gè)有效推動(dòng)城市發(fā)展的重要手段。其次，園博會(huì)的舉辦如同城市的一張綠色名片，會(huì)給舉辦城市帶來(lái)廣泛的關(guān)注度、形成非常巨大的社會(huì)影響力和價(jià)值。還有就是剛才提到的，我國(guó)人民具有的對(duì)園林藝術(shù)、花卉園藝喜愛(ài)的傳統(tǒng)，所以我覺(jué)得這是園博會(huì)在中國(guó)舉辦和在其他國(guó)家舉辦的不同之處。

LA：接下來(lái)，我想請(qǐng)問(wèn)我們的客人是如何看待這些園藝博覽會(huì)對(duì)景觀設(shè)計(jì)發(fā)展以及其他相關(guān)產(chǎn)業(yè)的推動(dòng)作用？與此同時(shí)，它們對(duì)城市和地方發(fā)展會(huì)產(chǎn)生怎樣的影響？

Christian：不管是在西方還是東方，園藝博覽會(huì)包含雙重任務(wù)，除了短期對(duì)園藝進(jìn)行集中展示之外，還包括長(zhǎng)期通過(guò)園林來(lái)解決周邊城市地帶的發(fā)展問(wèn)題。在歐洲，園博會(huì)可能是解決2塊城市區(qū)域之間的連接問(wèn)題，但是在中國(guó)可能包括激活一個(gè)郊區(qū)、一個(gè)地區(qū)的問(wèn)題。對(duì)于一個(gè)普通的參觀者來(lái)說(shuō)，他看到的可能僅僅是一個(gè)園林的展示，但是對(duì)于我們作為經(jīng)常進(jìn)行園林設(shè)計(jì)和規(guī)劃方面的學(xué)者和專家來(lái)說(shuō)，會(huì)知道它將對(duì)這個(gè)地區(qū)產(chǎn)生20年甚至30年以上長(zhǎng)遠(yuǎn)的影響。

ZHENG：我很同意Dobrick先生的說(shuō)法。在中國(guó)，園博會(huì)還可以為我們的行業(yè)搭建一個(gè)互相交流的平臺(tái)。實(shí)際上，我們的城市是需要各類節(jié)事活動(dòng)的，在歷史上也是這樣，如宋畫(huà)《金明池爭(zhēng)標(biāo)圖》中所繪的就是皇帝在每年固定的日期，向所有的市民開(kāi)放位于開(kāi)封城郊的皇家園林—金明池，在園中水面上舉辦的爭(zhēng)標(biāo)活動(dòng)，就成為了一個(gè)重要的城市節(jié)事和傳統(tǒng)。又如，辛棄疾的詩(shī)“玉壺光轉(zhuǎn)，一夜魚(yú)龍舞”，描述的是元宵佳節(jié)夜晚城市里熱鬧的景致。今天北京的公園中有很多以植物和自然為主題的節(jié)事，都會(huì)有大量的觀賞者去參與，如玉淵潭的櫻花節(jié)、香山的紅葉節(jié)、植物園的桃花節(jié)等，它們的影響力是全市范圍的，為城市的文化做出了突出貢獻(xiàn)，對(duì)市民熱愛(ài)自然、欣賞自然的社會(huì)風(fēng)氣的形成有巨大的推動(dòng)作用，已經(jīng)深刻塑造了當(dāng)代北京的城市氣質(zhì)。

我認(rèn)為園博會(huì)也是這樣，北京本身就是一個(gè)以舉辦各類大型城市事件活動(dòng)來(lái)推動(dòng)城市發(fā)展的典型城市。如在1990年舉辦了亞運(yùn)會(huì)，舉辦地就在北京的中軸線北側(cè)。城市規(guī)劃也在這個(gè)區(qū)域預(yù)留了未來(lái)舉辦奧運(yùn)會(huì)的場(chǎng)地，具有前瞻性，到2008年舉辦夏季奧運(yùn)會(huì)，中軸線北端建設(shè)680hm2巨大尺度的奧林匹克森林公園。到2013年結(jié)合城南行動(dòng)計(jì)劃，選擇在豐臺(tái)區(qū)臨永定河的一處廢棄垃圾場(chǎng)作為中國(guó)國(guó)際園林花卉博覽會(huì)的基址，并建立了中國(guó)園林博物館，也提前實(shí)現(xiàn)了當(dāng)?shù)氐牡罔F線路建設(shè)，設(shè)置了園博園站，體現(xiàn)出推進(jìn)規(guī)劃落實(shí)和快速發(fā)展的獨(dú)特特質(zhì)。到了2010年，結(jié)合鮮花港建設(shè)，又在順義區(qū)舉行了花博會(huì)，在2014年，在懷柔區(qū)雁棲湖舉辦了APEC會(huì)議，形成了國(guó)際會(huì)都。2019年，也是新中國(guó)成立70周年時(shí)，即將在延慶區(qū)舉辦世界園藝博覽會(huì)，2022年，助力實(shí)現(xiàn)京津冀一體化，北京市與張家口市聯(lián)合舉辦冬季奧運(yùn)會(huì)。所以大型城市事件對(duì)北京區(qū)域發(fā)展有深刻的影響（圖1）。

LA：這位是多布里克先生，荷蘭West 8城市規(guī)劃與景觀設(shè)計(jì)事務(wù)所的代表，也是此次北京園藝博覽會(huì)主要庭園區(qū)域的設(shè)計(jì)師之一，我想知道您的作品的設(shè)計(jì)思想和理念是什么？與之前的項(xiàng)目相比，它的特殊之處是什么？

Christian：我們?cè)诒敬螆@博會(huì)的場(chǎng)地上設(shè)計(jì)了3 座花園，這3座花園是通過(guò)一條路徑聯(lián)系起來(lái)的，用不同的植栽、不同的園藝設(shè)計(jì)，帶給人們不同的感官體驗(yàn)。我們覺(jué)得園藝的產(chǎn)生就是為了讓人們接觸自然、體會(huì)自然。我們也希望通過(guò)不同的設(shè)計(jì)手法，使這些樹(shù)木、灌木和泥土能喚起人們感情上的共鳴。它是有季節(jié)上的變化的，參觀者在不同季節(jié)拜訪園林的感覺(jué)是不同的。園藝是對(duì)自然的一種自然式的展示。同時(shí)，我們也讓參觀者了解，自然也會(huì)受到來(lái)自季節(jié)的不可控制的節(jié)奏的影響。希望參觀者體會(huì)到這個(gè)簡(jiǎn)單的信息，這是一個(gè)很簡(jiǎn)單的信息，但是我們覺(jué)得如果參觀者能體會(huì)到這些，我們就會(huì)覺(jué)得特別幸運(yùn)。

LA：好的，多布里克先生，我還有另外一個(gè)問(wèn)題，請(qǐng)問(wèn)您在設(shè)計(jì)過(guò)程中遇到過(guò)哪些難題？您最終是怎樣解決的？

Christian：我們?cè)趫@子的設(shè)計(jì)過(guò)程中，面臨著的挑戰(zhàn)是怎么把它落實(shí)。開(kāi)始把它設(shè)計(jì)成逐漸下沉的形式。它最深的地方在地下9m，可以給人形成向上仰望的空間體驗(yàn)。后來(lái)我們和世園局多次溝通和反饋，發(fā)現(xiàn)地下水位只有地下5m，這種情況下，我們要從尺度上來(lái)調(diào)整我們的設(shè)計(jì)。另外一點(diǎn)是我們不僅要考慮到適合北京地區(qū)的植物苗木品種，同時(shí)也要考慮到在2019年北京世園會(huì)開(kāi)幕前，我們不可能有足夠的時(shí)間等待植物的成長(zhǎng)。為了達(dá)到開(kāi)幕的效果，什么樣的苗木能供我們使用是我們面臨的很大的問(wèn)題。我們希望我們的設(shè)計(jì)不僅是一個(gè)美好的愿景，更希望它是一個(gè)可以落地的項(xiàng)目。

LA：鄭教授，您對(duì)多布里克先生面臨的問(wèn)題有什么看法？您有什么建議嗎？

ZHENG：West 8的設(shè)計(jì)是作為國(guó)外設(shè)計(jì)師創(chuàng)意展園完成的，組委會(huì)就是希望Dobrick先生能夠提供最好的創(chuàng)意，不會(huì)有更多的預(yù)設(shè)條件，我覺(jué)得沒(méi)有任何問(wèn)題，也非常期待。另外，我看過(guò)West 8在2012年西安世園會(huì)做的萬(wàn)橋園，效果非常好，也很有影響力，我特別期待這個(gè)花園能夠再次帶來(lái)難忘的體驗(yàn)。

LA：在全球化大背景下，我們有更多的機(jī)會(huì)在不同的國(guó)家和地區(qū)開(kāi)展實(shí)踐項(xiàng)目，比如說(shuō)，接下來(lái)的北京世園會(huì)就是一個(gè)很好的機(jī)遇。不知道您2位是怎樣看待全球化給景觀設(shè)計(jì)以及其相關(guān)產(chǎn)業(yè)帶來(lái)的變化？

Christian：我認(rèn)為全球化有非常好的一方面，從園林景觀的角度來(lái)說(shuō)，在過(guò)去的200年中，整個(gè)園林藝術(shù)發(fā)展是東西方互相輸出的過(guò)程，大家都想獲取異國(guó)情調(diào)的園林體驗(yàn)。全球化以后，有大量美國(guó)式、歐洲式的園林輸出到了東方。園博會(huì)的有益之處就是可以提供學(xué)術(shù)、技術(shù)和植栽品種層面的交流平臺(tái)。另一方面，我們認(rèn)為中國(guó)不僅需要國(guó)際化的園林體驗(yàn)，更應(yīng)該回歸到本源，讓參觀者看到中國(guó)傳統(tǒng)園林、植物、空間的塑造。從這個(gè)角度來(lái)看，我們已經(jīng)開(kāi)始看到中國(guó)園林的發(fā)展，能得到參觀者的認(rèn)同感是非常積極的一面。但是，全球化是具有兩面性的，不僅有好的一面，也有特別危險(xiǎn)的一面。

ZHENG：我非常同意Dobrick先生的觀點(diǎn)，全球化能夠促進(jìn)各方廣泛而深刻的交流，讓各國(guó)的專業(yè)人員可以互相了解對(duì)方，如果沒(méi)有全球化，可能也不存在今天我們的對(duì)話了。比如18世紀(jì)的歐洲花園曾盛行“中國(guó)風(fēng)”的添景物，有很多中式塔和亭子。但多是設(shè)計(jì)師以他們想象中的樣子完成的。反過(guò)來(lái)，中國(guó)園林建設(shè)也受到歐美風(fēng)的很多影響，很多是通過(guò)二手資料或者照片猜測(cè)，并沒(méi)有很透徹地了解設(shè)計(jì)的理念。進(jìn)入到全球化發(fā)展階段后，聯(lián)系更加密切，反而有助于促進(jìn)各國(guó)深入了解對(duì)方的文化，而不是去盲目地崇拜和借鑒，更多的是相互了解各個(gè)國(guó)家設(shè)計(jì)的思路或者共享技術(shù)，共同面對(duì)當(dāng)代發(fā)展中的各種挑戰(zhàn)，比如氣候變化、海平面上升、空氣污染等問(wèn)題，吸收其他國(guó)家和地區(qū)相關(guān)行業(yè)里更好的解決辦法。任何地區(qū)面對(duì)全球化問(wèn)題的同時(shí)，也有地區(qū)發(fā)展的壓力，這些問(wèn)題是慢慢形成的，所以對(duì)于風(fēng)景園林這個(gè)專業(yè)就是不斷地在應(yīng)對(duì)全球化的同時(shí)，解決好地區(qū)發(fā)展壓力，傳承當(dāng)?shù)氐纳鷳B(tài)智慧，并不斷地與城市發(fā)展相調(diào)試和適應(yīng)，讓城市更加宜居和永續(xù)。

LA：謝謝。您2位都是處在園林行業(yè)前沿的杰出設(shè)計(jì)師。面對(duì)當(dāng)今世界范圍內(nèi)的氣候變化和環(huán)境退化，能否談?wù)勎覀儜?yīng)如何在景觀設(shè)計(jì)實(shí)踐中面對(duì)挑戰(zhàn)，體現(xiàn)其生態(tài)價(jià)值？

Christian：風(fēng)景園林這個(gè)專業(yè)對(duì)全球化的影響有大尺度和小尺度2個(gè)層面。以歐洲的節(jié)能和可持續(xù)發(fā)展為例，在德國(guó)，政府鼓勵(lì)每個(gè)人參與，每家都會(huì)在屋頂安裝太陽(yáng)能電池板。雖然數(shù)量很小，但是由于全民參與，形成了整體節(jié)能的效應(yīng)，這對(duì)國(guó)家的影響非常大。而在荷蘭，個(gè)人參與的規(guī)模較小，由政府決定實(shí)施大型項(xiàng)目以實(shí)現(xiàn)綠色能源。在北海所建設(shè)的風(fēng)力發(fā)電場(chǎng)形成綠色能源輸出的比例和德國(guó)是相同的。同樣，對(duì)于風(fēng)景園林行業(yè)，我們能做的也有很多，例如可以教育孩子去理解一棵蔬菜的成長(zhǎng)對(duì)生態(tài)環(huán)境的影響和水資源的教育等。如果能利用這個(gè)行業(yè)對(duì)每一個(gè)人進(jìn)行教育，那就會(huì)對(duì)整個(gè)地球能源利用產(chǎn)生一定的影響。每個(gè)個(gè)體都能夠?qū)鉀Q問(wèn)題產(chǎn)生一定的作用。

2 West 8 作品：上海新華濱江公園West 8’s project, Xinhua Waterfront Park

ZHENG：我認(rèn)為風(fēng)景園林學(xué)實(shí)際上就是調(diào)和人工干預(yù)和自然環(huán)境關(guān)系的學(xué)科，核心意義就是生態(tài)價(jià)值的體現(xiàn)，這也是我們專業(yè)的根本問(wèn)題，我同意Dobrick先生的觀點(diǎn)：分為不同尺度來(lái)看待問(wèn)題。從大的區(qū)域來(lái)看，任何城市都是建立在自然系統(tǒng)之上的，這個(gè)自然不是完全天然的環(huán)境，它是經(jīng)過(guò)持久的人工改造、整理和梳理之后的自然，城市建造在它的上面，會(huì)形成宜居的環(huán)境，像北京城的營(yíng)建梳理了西山的匯水，引水貫都，并在西山地區(qū)進(jìn)行持久的風(fēng)景與園林營(yíng)建，形成三山五園，包括昆明湖、昆玉河、長(zhǎng)河，進(jìn)入城里面會(huì)有什剎海、中海、南海、北海，再往東通過(guò)通惠河和通州連在一起，通州就是京杭大運(yùn)河的北端點(diǎn)。實(shí)際上就是通過(guò)人工來(lái)疏導(dǎo)自然的一個(gè)系統(tǒng)，使它形成人類宜居體系，能夠跨越經(jīng)濟(jì)、人口和時(shí)代發(fā)展的變遷，都是比較繁榮的區(qū)域。所以，通過(guò)整理和梳理自然，進(jìn)行適度地干預(yù)來(lái)形成的環(huán)境，這就是它最大的生態(tài)價(jià)值體現(xiàn)。但是也具有兩面性，像荷蘭是一個(gè)低地的國(guó)家，它會(huì)有很多圩田，從今天的生物學(xué)生態(tài)學(xué)觀點(diǎn)來(lái)看，不斷地填海，會(huì)影響淺海岸地帶的生物多樣性，如海岸的底棲生物和潮溝的結(jié)構(gòu)等問(wèn)題，但是通過(guò)填海形成的圩田確實(shí)使人居環(huán)境更適宜，成為比較發(fā)達(dá)的國(guó)家，這種生態(tài)價(jià)值有一個(gè)動(dòng)態(tài)的標(biāo)準(zhǔn)來(lái)衡量，風(fēng)景園林的工作就是要通過(guò)選擇什么樣的方式，在什么時(shí)間去進(jìn)行適度的人工干預(yù)自然，這是風(fēng)景園林學(xué)科的優(yōu)勢(shì)。計(jì)成提到：自成天然之趣，不煩人事之工。就是在自然系統(tǒng)上來(lái)完成我們的工作，這就是在大尺度的層面看待問(wèn)題。小尺度層面來(lái)說(shuō)，目前很多的城市病，我們需要去研究城市綠地的功能，如對(duì)于健康的價(jià)值，對(duì)于緩解熱島的效益，對(duì)于生物多樣性和緩解雨洪、地表徑流中的作用。這些都是我們今天需要做的工作，我仍然想說(shuō)，無(wú)論面對(duì)的任務(wù)是什么樣的基址，我們都要在深刻理解區(qū)域?qū)用娴纳鷳B(tài)系統(tǒng)的基礎(chǔ)上開(kāi)展工作，才能體現(xiàn)出風(fēng)景園林專業(yè)的獨(dú)特價(jià)值。

LA：接下來(lái)，我想知道您對(duì)未來(lái)10年中景觀設(shè)計(jì)及其相關(guān)行業(yè)的發(fā)展趨勢(shì)有何看法？

Christian：回到剛才說(shuō)的全球化的問(wèn)題，我們覺(jué)得未來(lái)可能的發(fā)展方向是一種本土化、地域化的回歸。當(dāng)?shù)氐木用褡鳛楸就恋脑V求，他們會(huì)希望有一種場(chǎng)所感、回歸歷史和文化。類似于在飲食文化方面，我的祖母會(huì)用某種特定的方法制作食品，體現(xiàn)了當(dāng)?shù)亟橙丝煲У囊恍┦炙?。我們可以發(fā)現(xiàn)這些也會(huì)體現(xiàn)在景觀設(shè)計(jì)方面。在很多項(xiàng)目當(dāng)中，無(wú)論是政府業(yè)主還是私人業(yè)主已經(jīng)開(kāi)始有了這方面的追求。

ZHENG：我也同意Dobrick先生提到的關(guān)于回歸的概念，我覺(jué)得這個(gè)趨勢(shì)很難預(yù)測(cè)，但是總體來(lái)講，風(fēng)景園林行業(yè)就是要不斷解決社會(huì)經(jīng)濟(jì)和城市發(fā)展過(guò)程中人居環(huán)境發(fā)生的改變，如果發(fā)生了不好的改變，我們要想辦法去應(yīng)對(duì)。每個(gè)時(shí)代有相適應(yīng)的對(duì)策，只有在當(dāng)時(shí)的社會(huì)背景下，尋找到了最合適的辦法，它就會(huì)使人居環(huán)境變得更加美好，所以我覺(jué)得這個(gè)趨勢(shì)是不容易預(yù)測(cè)的。中國(guó)人的棲居傳統(tǒng)是喜歡詩(shī)意的山水城市，首先會(huì)整理所在區(qū)域自然的匯水，引入并穿過(guò)城市作為城市發(fā)展的基底，人們?cè)诔侵凶约以鹤永锩鏍I(yíng)建花園。他們就聯(lián)想到花園中的山就是城外真山的余脈到了自家，水也要和外面真實(shí)的水互通在一起，這就形成了整體的自然觀。同時(shí)又在城外淺山地區(qū)營(yíng)建一些寺廟、書(shū)院等建筑，逐漸形成了自然與人文交織、風(fēng)景與文化共存的面貌，構(gòu)成城內(nèi)外的共同體。人的生活是離不開(kāi)自然的，不同的時(shí)期，社會(huì)的經(jīng)濟(jì)發(fā)展、人口的發(fā)展，城市、郊區(qū)都會(huì)有不同的變化，但我覺(jué)得風(fēng)景園林一直有它存在的價(jià)值，它可以不斷解決這些問(wèn)題，讓人們不斷地親近自然，形成更健康的生活方式，這個(gè)可能就是發(fā)展趨勢(shì)吧。

Christian：鄭教授，您認(rèn)為未來(lái)10年的發(fā)展趨勢(shì)將會(huì)怎樣？因?yàn)楝F(xiàn)在我很想知道。我承認(rèn)現(xiàn)在仍有很多問(wèn)題亟待解決，但發(fā)展趨勢(shì)會(huì)怎樣呢？

ZHENG：我覺(jué)得從10年的發(fā)展來(lái)看，這個(gè)確實(shí)很難預(yù)測(cè)，但是我也認(rèn)為，一方面是通過(guò)綠地的系統(tǒng)來(lái)解決城市病的問(wèn)題，這是非常重要的一個(gè)點(diǎn)，中國(guó)正在推行海綿城市，城市中的微公園更新和城市森林建設(shè)，都是希望從生態(tài)的角度來(lái)審視我們風(fēng)景園林的行業(yè)以及綠地體系在城市中的價(jià)值。第2個(gè)方面是目前已經(jīng)開(kāi)始做的，就是社會(huì)層面，讓更廣泛的大眾參與到綠地和公園之中，現(xiàn)在有一個(gè)詞叫可食用景觀，就是可食用植栽和科普教育與整個(gè)綠地的體系如何更好的對(duì)接，我覺(jué)得未來(lái)的10年，在中國(guó)一定會(huì)做得更好。讓它有更廣泛的群眾基礎(chǔ)，不僅僅是審美的基礎(chǔ)。

LA：從教育的角度來(lái)說(shuō)，景觀設(shè)計(jì)行業(yè)應(yīng)做好怎樣的準(zhǔn)備去迎接未來(lái)的挑戰(zhàn)？

Christian：我認(rèn)為風(fēng)景園林教育可以通過(guò)各種不同的方式實(shí)現(xiàn)，不一定非要坐在教室里上課。這也是我們?cè)O(shè)計(jì)這個(gè)園子的目的，即希望教育是可以被體驗(yàn)和被感受的。讓人在潛移默化中受到影響，讓人愛(ài)上景觀、愛(ài)上自然。這在歐洲已經(jīng)比較普遍，比如歐洲社區(qū)的小花園，周圍的居民會(huì)一起參與花園的修建、改良、管理。我認(rèn)為這是風(fēng)景園林教育發(fā)展的一種趨勢(shì)。

ZHENG：的確，目前風(fēng)景園林的范疇在不斷擴(kuò)大，所以這對(duì)于教育來(lái)說(shuō)是一個(gè)巨大的挑戰(zhàn)，就像我所工作的北京林業(yè)大學(xué)園林學(xué)院，是新中國(guó)建立的歷史最悠久的風(fēng)景園林教育基地，有60多年的歷史，規(guī)模也是這個(gè)學(xué)科里中國(guó)最大。風(fēng)景園林專業(yè)的學(xué)生有2 500人左右，我們也不斷地在調(diào)整，風(fēng)景園林在教育部的學(xué)科評(píng)估中位于全國(guó)第一，也入選一流學(xué)科建設(shè)名錄。對(duì)于我們學(xué)院來(lái)說(shuō)，這是一個(gè)巨大的機(jī)會(huì)，我們的教育體系發(fā)展了60多年了，由于教育體系的變化，10年前流行的東西到現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)不再流行了，可能目前流行的熱點(diǎn)問(wèn)題，到了未來(lái)的10年也不再流行了。但唯有一些經(jīng)典的內(nèi)容，它是跨越時(shí)代的。我覺(jué)得無(wú)論風(fēng)景園林專業(yè)如何去擴(kuò)展，它實(shí)際上都是有一個(gè)內(nèi)核的，特別從本科教育的角度來(lái)講，它的內(nèi)核是要做好傳承，打下非常好的基礎(chǔ)，再在這個(gè)基礎(chǔ)上去進(jìn)行時(shí)代所需的擴(kuò)展，會(huì)在不同的時(shí)段，結(jié)合國(guó)內(nèi)國(guó)外的熱點(diǎn)問(wèn)題來(lái)進(jìn)行發(fā)展，同時(shí)，我們學(xué)院有非常廣泛的實(shí)習(xí)，比如蘇州、杭州的實(shí)習(xí)，從20世紀(jì)60年代就開(kāi)始了，因?yàn)楹芏嘟?jīng)典的東西是超越時(shí)代的。我們應(yīng)該在雙一流建設(shè)的基礎(chǔ)上，做好傳承，同時(shí)培養(yǎng)學(xué)生更開(kāi)闊的視野。從風(fēng)景園林的視角來(lái)分析生態(tài)、區(qū)域、城市的問(wèn)題，然后再看待它的綠地體系和花園的問(wèn)題，它是一個(gè)逐級(jí)的過(guò)程。同時(shí)，風(fēng)景園林與社會(huì)的對(duì)接，引導(dǎo)大眾參與園林設(shè)計(jì)，關(guān)注社會(huì)問(wèn)題。還有就是文化的傳承，繼續(xù)讓文化以風(fēng)景園林為載體去傳承，把園林的各個(gè)功能融合在一起，產(chǎn)生更多的社會(huì)、經(jīng)濟(jì)、人文價(jià)值，這就是一個(gè)教育的方向。

LA：多布里克先生對(duì)于West 8的海外項(xiàng)目有著豐富經(jīng)驗(yàn)。對(duì)于一個(gè)國(guó)際事務(wù)所來(lái)說(shuō)，West 8能在每個(gè)項(xiàng)目中都做出本地特色，是極為難能可貴的。我們相信，West 8在不同的景觀文化中工作的經(jīng)驗(yàn)，對(duì)于所有的風(fēng)景園林師都有著巨大的借鑒意義。您能否為我們展示一個(gè)您最近參與的項(xiàng)目？（如上海新華濱江公園）這個(gè)項(xiàng)目是如何與當(dāng)?shù)匚幕蚴侵苓叚h(huán)境相聯(lián)系的呢？

Christian：新華濱江綠地屬于黃浦江東岸濱江公共空間貫通開(kāi)放工程的組成部分，隸屬浦東五大濱江主題區(qū)段之一的文化長(zhǎng)廊段，岸線全長(zhǎng)約1.6km，總占地面積17萬(wàn)m2，東接民生碼頭工業(yè)遺存更新區(qū)域，西連上海船廠濱江綠地，串聯(lián)民生路、桃林路、源深路、福山路、東方路等重要城市街道，將集東岸貫通道、濱水大道、城市廣場(chǎng)、開(kāi)放式公共綠地等為一體，突出文化休閑和體驗(yàn)功能，是打造浦江文化高地的重點(diǎn)項(xiàng)目。其中的亮點(diǎn)設(shè)計(jì)中可稱之為與中國(guó)文化相關(guān)的可舉例福山路2座工業(yè)遺產(chǎn)建筑之間的百子廣場(chǎng)。它是雙層水岸城市濱江段的核心，位于2座工業(yè)遺產(chǎn)建筑之間和雙層水岸的中點(diǎn)。百子山通過(guò)現(xiàn)代的語(yǔ)匯詮釋傳統(tǒng)的造園手法，將百子廣場(chǎng)“百子同樂(lè)”的定位生動(dòng)展現(xiàn)。防汛墻的駝峰高差通過(guò)舒緩的廣場(chǎng)坡道緩慢化解。兩側(cè)利用高差設(shè)置了凹壁以提供露天休閑座椅。有別于其他廣場(chǎng)用于大型節(jié)慶活動(dòng)的場(chǎng)地要求，百子廣場(chǎng)中間的百子山是一個(gè)鼓勵(lì)大人和孩子自?shī)首詷?lè)的樂(lè)園（圖2～4）。

3 West 8 作品：上海新華濱江公園West 8’s project, Xinhua Waterfront Park

LA：做國(guó)際項(xiàng)目必然需要在不同文化中切換。當(dāng)您開(kāi)始一個(gè)新項(xiàng)目時(shí)，您有沒(méi)有什么快速融入的小技巧？您怎樣去了解那些不為人知的文化和生活方式呢？

Christian:通過(guò)了解一個(gè)地方的歷史，我們就能知道那里發(fā)生過(guò)的事。而那些故事通常是由藝術(shù)家告訴我們的。有時(shí)候，繪畫(huà)、詩(shī)歌、文學(xué)以及一些簡(jiǎn)單的民間故事都會(huì)成為我們靈感的重要來(lái)源。有時(shí)候，最簡(jiǎn)單的方法就是坐在現(xiàn)存的公園或花園里，看看這些當(dāng)?shù)厝恕Ｋ麄儠?huì)告訴我們一個(gè)特定地方的人們?nèi)绾闻c大自然接觸，而這正是我們想知道的。就好比一個(gè)大廚游覽其他國(guó)家，他試圖從當(dāng)?shù)氐牟穗戎屑橙§`感和想法。在我們開(kāi)始為某些新項(xiàng)目設(shè)計(jì)之前，參觀某個(gè)地方現(xiàn)存的主要花園，我們會(huì)很享受。

LA：West 8很擅長(zhǎng)創(chuàng)造獨(dú)一無(wú)二具有高度識(shí)別性的構(gòu)筑物。這是否是設(shè)計(jì)策略的一部分？

Christian：“創(chuàng)造一個(gè)地方”的確是我們應(yīng)用到城市規(guī)劃和景觀設(shè)計(jì)中的一種技術(shù)。我們堅(jiān)信它對(duì)這一行業(yè)的重要性。我們創(chuàng)造一個(gè)地方，它會(huì)是第二自然，人們可以回到這里，找尋自己的記憶，找到那一份參與感和歸屬感。不管它是一個(gè)花園，或是一條街道、一個(gè)廣場(chǎng)，還是一個(gè)海濱。我們會(huì)采用不同的方法，而不僅僅只是去創(chuàng)造同樣的東西。這只是它的一部分，但并不是唯一的方法，或者說(shuō)它的全部。我們有很多方法去重建那種屬于它們的文化。在創(chuàng)造這個(gè)第二自然時(shí)，我們會(huì)先考察其背景。這是一種基于實(shí)用性和必然性的邏輯。它會(huì)表現(xiàn)出一種特性，但有時(shí)也是當(dāng)?shù)丨h(huán)境的一種表達(dá)，這也正是為什么荷蘭West 8沒(méi)有固定模式的原因。因?yàn)槊恳粋€(gè)立地都是獨(dú)一無(wú)二的，所以它們每個(gè)都不一樣（圖5～8）。

LA：West 8 正在介入越來(lái)越復(fù)雜的項(xiàng)目。比如紐約總督島，它絕不僅僅只是一個(gè)城市公園。介入大尺度的復(fù)雜項(xiàng)目是有意為之嗎，或者這只是行業(yè)的趨勢(shì)？

Christian：自創(chuàng)建以來(lái)，West 8已經(jīng)在國(guó)際上工作了30年，并在世界各地開(kāi)展項(xiàng)目，比如：哥本哈根、倫敦、莫斯科、紐約、馬德里、漢堡、多倫多、阿姆斯特丹、上海以及首爾。其中一些是從大規(guī)模城市規(guī)劃中衍生的子項(xiàng)目。而這些大規(guī)模的項(xiàng)目中有許多都是國(guó)際重要比賽的突破性成果。最近在比賽中獲勝的還包括香港西九龍文化區(qū)公園?？偠綅u公園[位于紐約港的一個(gè)172英畝（約69.6hm2）的島嶼上]的設(shè)計(jì)在2006年的一次國(guó)際設(shè)計(jì)比賽中獲勝，從而總督島項(xiàng)目啟動(dòng)（圖9～10）。

West 8不僅有處理復(fù)雜設(shè)計(jì)的綜合方法，并且在以下幾方面經(jīng)驗(yàn)豐富：大規(guī)模城市規(guī)劃與設(shè)計(jì)、景觀設(shè)計(jì)、濱水景觀項(xiàng)目、公園、廣場(chǎng)和庭園設(shè)計(jì)。我們還針對(duì)全球變暖、城市化和基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施問(wèn)題提出了大規(guī)模城市規(guī)劃的理念和愿景。通過(guò)這種綜合方法，許多城市設(shè)計(jì)和全球性問(wèn)題都能得到有效解決。而且我們有一個(gè)跨國(guó)團(tuán)隊(duì)，一直以來(lái)都非常成功?，F(xiàn)在的許多學(xué)者都傾向于將我們的方法歸為“景觀城市主義”，我們發(fā)現(xiàn)能夠與之引起共鳴。我們的馬德里里奧項(xiàng)目（實(shí)質(zhì)上是曼薩納雷斯河岸更新景觀工程設(shè)計(jì)）最近獲得了由哈佛大學(xué)設(shè)計(jì)學(xué)院頒發(fā)的維羅妮卡·魯吉綠色城市設(shè)計(jì)獎(jiǎng)。

LA：最后，您能談?wù)剬?duì)北京世園會(huì)的期待或愿望嗎？

Christian：我們對(duì)這次世園會(huì)有很高的期望。有這么多優(yōu)秀的設(shè)計(jì)師參與此次盛會(huì)，我非常期待看到這次世園會(huì)的成功舉辦。同時(shí)，我們也感受到了壓力。首先我們要盡可能高水平地實(shí)現(xiàn)此次展會(huì)。我們選擇了如何設(shè)計(jì)，接下來(lái)就是如何去實(shí)現(xiàn)它。我非常希望看到1 600萬(wàn)觀眾一起分享自己的體驗(yàn)。

4 West 8 作品：上海新華濱江公園West 8’s project, Xinhua Waterfront Park

ZHENG：2019年北京世園會(huì)也正值新中國(guó)成立70周年，相信到時(shí)會(huì)有更多的人歡聚在北京并參觀世園會(huì)，會(huì)有來(lái)自全球各行各業(yè)的人，所以我非常期待。我記得A1級(jí)別（最高級(jí)別）世園會(huì)上一次在中國(guó)舉辦是在1999年的昆明，當(dāng)時(shí)促進(jìn)了我國(guó)風(fēng)景園林行業(yè)的快速發(fā)展，以至于近20年來(lái)，任何城市要舉辦不同規(guī)模和級(jí)別的園博會(huì)，可能都會(huì)去回顧和參觀1999年昆明世園會(huì)園博園，它有非常好的引領(lǐng)性，我也期待在2019年，經(jīng)過(guò)20年，A1級(jí)的世園會(huì)來(lái)到北京，在帶來(lái)巨大的社會(huì)效應(yīng)同時(shí)，也會(huì)更深刻地帶動(dòng)風(fēng)景園林行業(yè)的發(fā)展，再引領(lǐng)下一個(gè)20年！

致謝：感謝張博雅前期準(zhǔn)備采訪內(nèi)容。

注釋：

圖1由鄭曦提供；圖2～4由West 8提供，圖5、6來(lái)源于Jeroen Musch; 圖7來(lái)源于 Luke Harley; 圖8來(lái)源于Nicola Betts; 圖9、10來(lái)源于Timothy Schenk。

錄音整理：王子恒

翻譯：萬(wàn)靜柯

校對(duì)：王晞月

（編輯/張?chǎng)┚辏?/p>

Christian Dobrick graduated from the University of Essen in German with a master’s degree of landscape architecture in 1997 specializing in the landscape design of complex urban public spaces. In early 2000, Dobrick joined in West 8. At West 8, together with Founder and Design Director Adriaan Geuze, Mr. Dobrick has led a series of well-known large-scale projects of urban and landscape design, including the landscape regeneration project at the bank of Madrid River in Spain which received many awards and the prestigious overall landscape design in the Shanghai R&D Center of Novartis AG.

ZHENG Xi is a professor at the school of landscape architecture, Beijing Forestry University and deputy chief editor of the Journal. He graduated from Beijing Forestry University with a doctor’s degree of urban planning and design(including the landscape architecture) in 2006 and then stayed at school for teaching there. He mainly completed a series of large-scale planning and design projects such as the project of the main venue area in 3rd Asian Beach Games and the Botanical Garden in Yantai, as well as the related researches on landscape performance, mountainwater city and the framework of green complex.

ZHAO Jing, the director of contributing editorial department of this journal and associate professor at Beijing Forestry University,host Mr.Dobrick’s Dialogue with Professor ZHENG Xi.Through the communication and conversation of the two designers, we have learned the driving forces of horticultural expos for both of the landscape architecture and urban development from their perspectives. And we need to confront the opportunities and challenges that the trends and issues such as globalization and climatic change brought to the landscape architecture so as to better deal with the challenges in the landscape architecture,its related industries during the next 10 years.

LA:Landscape ArchitectureJournal

Christian: Christian Dobrick

ZHENG: ZHENG Xi

LA: We are all here together because of the Beijing Expo 2019. In recent years, there are many various kinds of horticultural expos which were held one by one and will be held in different countries in the future. So, what's your perception about the expos being held in China this time, and what's the difference between the expo and other countries?

Christian: I feel that one of the main differences between the Chinese and European expos is especially their scales. For the Beijing Expo 2019 where West 8 is invited, they expect visitors to reach 16 million people. This is the biggest challenge we face, because in Europe where expos are held, they expect one million or two million visitors. The challenge is not only to consider how to introduce so many people to our way of gardening, but also to consider security, streamlines the different dimensions of consideration.

ZHENG: Currently, there are horticulture expositions at all levels in China, that is, those expos have been already held, are being held and will be held. So horticulture expo is a hot topic in the process of development of Chinese contemporary city. Actually, China has this tradition of collectively showing various types of gardens,which is called collection of the best garden such as the Old Summer Palace, whose aim is to gather all excellent garden works in our country together.The expo parks that every city of China today has been constructed for holding horticulture expo show themselves at large scale, but why? Firstly, I think China is a developing country, and it is in the process of rapid urbanization requiring constant urban construction, so the features of horticulture expo decides that it is effective for promoting urban planning and implementation. And the most important significance is that its opening time is fixed, so it brings great pressure to the construction party who tends to drive some works that can’t be easily completed at other times to be done quickly in short time. And host cities will coordinate with other departments giving priority to push forward construction of the project and related accomplishment of supporting infrastructure, so as to ensure that the opening ceremony will be done on time. Therefore, expo parks have formed this kind of state that much attention is paid to them and the contribution of each part is put into their construction, which becomes the major method of effectively promoting the development of cities.In addition, the holding of horticulture expo is like green visiting card of a city, which contributes to bring extensive attention to cities and form tremendous social in fluence and value. Moreover,just now I mentioned that people in our country adhere to the tradition of loving gardening and horticulture, so I think this is the difference among the expos held in China and other countries.

5 West 8作品：阿市東半島住宅區(qū)行人橋West 8’s project, Borneo-Sporenburg Bridges

LA: Next, I would like to ask our guests how do you think of the driving force of these horticultural expos to the development of landscape architecture and other related industries? Furthermore, how do they affect urban and local development?

Christian: I think a lot of garden show or expos have double functions. Apart from the core motive to demonstrate and exchange ideas in horticultural skills and developments, expos in Europe do usually function also as an engine to kick-start a large-scale development that intend to resolve the urban design problems between two existing regions of a city or between different cities.Same as some expos in China which are planned with excessively large-scale site, do function also as a motor to kick-start a large-scale regional development, intend to resolve urban design problems identi fied during urbanization. So for an average visitor he may see only a demonstration of garden design, but for those of us who regularly engage in landscape design and planning, we know that each of these expo creates a long-term impact on the region for 20 years or more.

ZHENG: I also agree with what Mr. Dobrick said. In China, the International Horticultural Expo can provide our industry with a platform to communicate with each other. In fact, our cities need various festival activities, and it did the same in our history. For example, the Painting in the Song dynastyDragon-boat Racing in Jinming Poolportrays that the emperor announced to open the Jinming Pool which was located in the suburb of Kaifeng City to all the citizens at a regular date each year. The dragon-boat racing held in the Jinming Pool has become an important festival activity and a tradition of the city. For another example, Xin Qiji, the famous poet in South Song Dynasty, wrote the poem “the bright moon like jade pot gradually moves toward the west and the lanterns shaped like dragons and fish dace throughout the whole night”which describes the lively scenery of the Lantern Festival in the city night. Today, there are some plants and nature-themed activities in the gardens such as Cherry Blossom Festival in Yuyuantan Park, the Red Leaf Festival in Fragrant Hills Park and the Peach Blossom Festival in Beijing Botanical Garden, a large number of people are willing to visit. These festival activities have great in fluence on the whole city, making contributions to the city’s culture and significantly promoting citizens love and appreciation for nature. They have already profoundly shaped the temperament of the contemporary Beijing.

6 West 8作品：荷蘭烏得勒支的麥西瑪公園West 8’s project, Maximapark Park Pergola

I think the International Horticultural Expo is such an activity and Beijing needs to drive its development through holding various large-scale urban events. For example, the Asian Games was held at the north of central axis of Beijing City in 1990. The site for holding the future Olympic Games has been reserved when making city planning, which is really foresighted. The 680-hectares Olympic Forest Park was built at the north of central axis before the holding of Summer Olympic Games in 2008. And in 2013, combined with the Action Plan of the south area of Beijing,an abandoned garbage dump near the Yongding River in Fengtai District was chosen to be the site of the International Garden Expo. In addition, the Garden Museum was built and the construction of local metro lines was also accomplished ahead of the schedule which set the Garden Expo Station.All of these reflect the special characteristics of implementing the plans to carry out and develop rapidly. In 2010, in conjunction with the construction of the Flower Port, the Flower Expo was held in Shunyi District, and the APEC meeting was held in 2014 in Yanxi Lake of Huairou District, thus forming the international center of conferences.The International Horticultural Expo will be held in Yanqing District in 2019, the year of 70th anniversary of the founding of China, and in 2022,Beijing and Zhangjiakou will jointly hold the Winter Olympic Games in order to facilitate the integration of Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei Region. Therefore, the big urban events have a profound impact on the development of Beijing regions (Fig. 1).

LA: This is Mr. Dobrick, the representative of West 8 and one of the designers of the master garden area in Beijing Expo 2019. I am wondering what is your design idea and concept of your work? And what makes it a special project comparing with the previous ones?

Christian: West 8 team led by our Design Director, Adriaan Geuze and I have designed the expo garden this time which can actually be experienced as a garden that intends to take visitors on a symbolic journey of life. The visitor will be disconnected from their surroundings and be led through a sequence of three rooms, each of which are connected by a narrow descending path. Each room has a unique atmosphere, uses different materials, plants, colours and most importantly has a different perspective. The journey of life ends in a moment of reflection. Different plants and different gardening designs bring different sensory experience to people. We think that horticulture is a birth of science; it is to make people take contact with nature, to experience nature. We also hope that these trees, shrubs, and soil can evoke visitors’emotional resonance through different design expressions. It is the seasonal changes. Visitors will feel differences in visiting these gardens in different seasons. Horticulture is a natural way for nature but at the same time, we also let the visitors know that nature will naturally be subject to the uncontrollable rhythm coming from the seasons. We hope visitors can understand this simple message. This is a very simple message, but if we succeed, we can feel particularly fortunate.

LA: Well. Mr. Dobrick, here is another question for you, have you encountered any problems in the process of design? And how did you handle them finally?

Christian: We have discussed a lot from the beginning about the deepest place of our garden design, which is designed at 9 meters below ground. This gives us a spectacular space experience when looking upwards, our team repeatedly communicated with organizers and found out that underground water level is just 5 meters underground, much higher than expected.In this case, we have to adjust our design in scale.Another point is that we have to take into account that some plant species are suitable for Beijing seedlings, but to take into account that the opening of the Beijing Expo 2019 will not allow enough time to wait for the growth of plants. In order to achieve the grand effect at the opening in time, the search for available nursery stock that we can use for our planting scheme is a big challenge we need to face. We hope our design is not only a beautiful vision, but also a project that can be landed. And we are equipped for that.

LA: Professor ZHENG, what is your perception about the issue that Mr.Dobrick faced with? And do you have any suggestions?

ZHENG: The design made by West 8 was finished as the creative gardens from foreign designers and the Committee hope that Mr.Dobrick can provide the best creative ideas, so they will not give more preparatory conditions. I’m looking forward to it and feel that there is not any problem. In addition, I have seen “the Garden of 10,000 Bridges” in the Xi’an Expo 2012 designed by West 8, and it not only has good effects but also has great in fluence. So I especially expect this garden can bring impressive experience once again.

LA: In the context of globalization, we also have more opportunities to carry out practices in different regions and different countries like the coming Beijing Expo 2019, it is a good opportunity. Then I am wondering what changes do you think the globalization has brought about in the landscape architecture and other related industries?

Christian: We believe that globalization has a very positive function.From the perspective of the landscape design development, in the past 200 years, the entire evolution of ‘garden’ is a process of exporting from East to West and vice versa. Everyone wants to have an exotic garden experience.In the process of globalization, a large number of American and European gardens are exported to the East. On the other hand, we believe that China not only needs an international garden experience, but also will return to their people’s wish to let visitors see the traditional Chinese gardens. From this point of view, we have begun to see that the development of Chinese gardens can attract the visitors’ sympathy. It is a very positive side. However, globalization has not only the good side but also the particularly dangerous side.

ZHENG: Globalization can promote extensive and profound exchanges among the professionals all over the world, so that they can know more about each other. And it is impossible that we can have dialogue with each other today without globalization. For example, the decorations with “Chinese Style” in the European gardens in 18 century have ever prevailed such as some Chinese pagodas and pavilions. But most of these were built by designers according to their imagination. In turn, theses Chinese gardens have also been in fluenced by European and American style, some of which are identified by guessing through secondary data and pictures, there is not thorough understanding of design concept. After entering the stage of globalization, China’s connection with European countries has become more closely which helps them have a deeper understanding of each other’s culture, instead of blindly worshiping and learning. The more what they can do is to understand each other’s design thoughts and sharing technologies, learn the better solutions of other countries and regions as well as face various challenges in contemporary development together, such as the climate change, the rising sea level and air pollution. When facing the issues of globalization which are formed gradually, each region is under the pressure from local development. Therefore, while constantly dealing with the globalization, the landscape architecture should also deal with this pressure, inherit the local ecological wisdom and then continually make changes to adapt urban development. Thus cities will be more livable and sustainable.

LA: Thank you. Both of you are outstanding designers in the frontier of landscape industry. In the face of today’s worldwide climate change and environmental degradation, could you please talk about how we can meet these challenges in landscape architecture practices to give expression to its ecological value?

Christian: It’s a very grandiose question. The impact of landscape architecture on globalization can be seen in both large-scale and small-scale.Take the example of energy saving and sustainable development in Europe. In Germany, the government encourages everyone to participate, and each installs solar panels on the roof, although the number of each installation is small, but the number of participation of all people involved formed a total energy saving impact that created a huge effect in the country level. In the Netherlands, there is relatively low level of small-scale individual participation, the government decided to implement large-scale projects to achieve green energy, built a wind farm in the off-shore North Sea. The proportion of green energy output of the Netherlands and Germany are the same. The same can happen for the landscape industry. We can invest in both large-scale and small-scale levels.There are also many knowledge and techniques that we can teach children.Let them know how to understand the impact of the growth of vegetable and plants on the environment, also the knowledge of water and other natural resources. If everyone can be educated in this industry, it will have an impact on the energy of the entire planet. And each individual can give impact to solve each of our problems.

7 West 8作品：鹿特丹中央火車站W(wǎng)est 8’s project, Rotterdam Central Station

ZHENG: In my opinion, landscape architecture is actually a discipline reconciling the relationship between human intervention and natural environment, and its core meaning is to embody ecological value which is the essential question of our discipline. I agree with Dobrick’s looking at problems from different scales. Viewed from the large areas, any city is built the natural system. This kind of natural system is not absolute natural environment, but the one is transformed, recombined and readjusted by human beings after a long period. Then cities can be built in the natural system and form a kind of livable environment, for example, the construction of Beijing optimized the catchment of the West Hill, channeled water to the city and built landscape in that area. As a result, the landscape “Three Hills and Five Gardens” was formed, including Kunming Lake, Kunyu River and Long River.And there are also Shicha Lake, Central Lake, the South Lake and the North Lake, along with the east Tonghui River can make them connect with Tongzhou District which is the north end of the Beijing-Hangzhou Grand Canal. Actually, this kind of natural system dredged by the man-power can form livable environment for human. It is a relatively prosperous region which can transcend the changes in economic, population and time.Therefore, the environment through recombining and readjusting the nature, and human intervention is the embodiment of the greatest ecological value.But it has both advantages and disadvantages, for example, the Netherlands as a low country has a lot of dike paddy fields. From the point of today’s biology and ecology, the constant reclaiming land from the sea will affect biodiversity of the shallow coastal areas such as the benthos and the construction of tidal creek. But the dike paddy fields formed by reclamation indeed make the living environment more suitable and make the country more developing. A dynamic standard is used to measure this kind of ecological value, and the work of landscape architecture is to choose the way and time to properly intervene the nature which is also its advantage. As Ji Cheng mentioned, perfection is made by nature instead of human intervention.We can treat issues at a large scale which refers to the accomplishment of our work from the aspect of natural system. And in terms of small scale,we need to make research on the bene fits of city greenbelt aiming at the currently “urban diseases”,such as its value to people’s health, the bene fits on relieving the urban heat island effect, the in fluence on biodiversity, the diversion of flood from rainfall and surface runoff. These are all the tasks we need to do today, but I still want to say, no matter what kind of plots we will face in tasks, we must carry on our work on the basis of deep understanding of ecological system at the regional level so as to embody the special value of landscape architecture.

LA: Next, question, what’s your perception about the trends in the next decade for landscape architecture and related industries?

Christian: I would like to come back to the previous question when we talk about globalization. We think that the possible future development direction is a localized appeal and localized return. As local appeals, local residents hope that they will have a sense of place and return to history and culture. Similar to the food culture, my grandmother used certain recipes to prepare her dishes. We can all see that this is also re flected in the landscape design aspect. In fact, we can feel that in many projects, whether it will be government owned or privately owned, has begun to have this pursuit.

ZHENG: I also agree with the concept of recurrence mentioned by Mr. Dobrick, and I think this trend is hard to predict. However, on the whole, the landscape architecture industry is constantly to try to deal with the changes of the living environment in the socio-economic and urban development, and we have to find ways to cope with it if there are some bad changes. Each era has its own appropriate countermeasures,only when we are in that social background to find the most appropriate way, can it make our living environment better, which is why I think the trend is not easily predictable. Traditionally,Chinese people prefer to live in scenic cities. People always collect the natural water around the region and introduce them together through the city making them as the basis of urban development.In this way, citizens can build gardens in their own courtyard. They usually associate the hills in their gardens with the hills of the real mountain outside the city, and the water will be apparently connected with that of the outside, thus a whole view of nature is formed. At the same time, they will build some temples and ancient academies around shallow mountains, thus the community combined with nature and humanity, landscape and culture is gradually formed in and around the city.People’s life is inseparable from nature. In different periods, the development of social economic and population as well as urban and suburban areas all have different changes. However, I think landscape architecture has its value of existence and can constantly solve these problems, so that people are continuously close to nature and a kind of healthier lifestyle can be cultivated. Maybe this is the growing trend.

8 West 8作品：多倫多中央濱水區(qū)波浪甲板West 8’s project, Simco WaveDeck, Toronto

Christian: Professor ZHENG, What do you think the trend for the next ten years? I am so curious now. I agree that there are a lot of problems we have to solve, but what is the trend?

ZHENG: I think it’s really hard to predict it from the development of a decade. However, I also think, on the one hand, solving the “urban diseases”through the greenbelt system is a very important point. China is implementing the construction of sponge cities, the regeneration micro-parks and the construction of urban forest can reflect values of our landscape architecture and greenbelt system from the ecological perspective. On the other hand,at the social level, we have already started now to let more people participate in the greenbelt and parks.Now there is a term called “edible landscape” which refers to that how to make the edible landscape planting and science education well connect with the whole greenbelt system. I think in the next 10 years,China will certainly make progress on it and make it has more extensive mass foundation, not only the aesthetic foundation.

LA：The next question, from the perspective of education, how should landscape architecture industry be well prepared to cope with future challenges?

Christian: I think there’s a lot of our gardens try to achieve this goal: bring people together and appreciate nature. There should not be only serious approach about landscape education. You do not have to sit in the classroom all the time. This is also why we design this garden. We hope that education can make people experience and feel. Let people fall in love with the landscape, fall in love with nature. This approach has become more common in Europe, for example, the very common small community gardens in Europe, the surrounding residents will be involved in building, improving,managing their small plots of garden, I think this is a trend.

ZHENG: Indeed, the range of landscape architecture is constantly expanding, so it is a great challenge for education, just like the School of Landscape Architecture in Beijing Forestry University where I work, it is an education base with the longest history of more than 60 years since the establishment of new China, and it has the largest scale in the same disciplines around China. There are about 2,500 students studying landscape architecture, and we are constantly making adjustments. Landscape architecture ranks first in the discipline evaluation of Ministry of Education and is listed in the world-class discipline construction. This is a tremendous opportunity for our school. Our education system has a history of more than 60 years, and because of its changes,what was popular 10 years ago has ceased to prevail so far, similarly the current hot spots perhaps will not prevail in the next 10 years. But the classic contents transcend times. In my opinion, no matter how the landscape architecture discipline expands, it actually has its core, especially from the perspectives of undergraduate education, its core is to carry it forward and lay a food foundation,and then expand it to meet times requirements.In different periods, we will also make it connect with hot spots at home and abroad. At the same time, the students in our school have extensive practices such as the internships in Suzhou and Hangzhou. And we started it from 1960s for that a lot of classic things can transcend the time. We should inherit our traditions on the basis of the construction of Double World-Classes as well as make students’ horizon wider. We can first analyze the ecological, regional and urban problems from the perspectives of landscape architecture, and then view the problem of greenbelt system and gardens.This is a gradual process. At the same time, the connection of landscape architecture and society can lead people to participate in the garden design and pay attention to the social issues. In addition,we should also take the landscape architecture as carrier to inherit cultures and integrate all the functions of the garden so as to present more social, economic and humane values. This is exactly a direction of education.

9 West 8作品：紐約總督島West 8’s project, Governors island

LA: As senior project manager of West 8, Dobrick has rich experience in oversea projects. These projects are highly local, which is rare and respectable for an international office like West 8. We believe West 8’s insights on working in different landscape culture would be very inspiring for all landscape architects.Can you show us a recent project you worked on? For example, Shanghai Xinhua Waterfront Park, how does it connect with local culture/surrounded landscape?

Christian: Xinhua Waterfront Park is a subproject of Huangpu Waterfront Revitalization Master plan begun by the Shanghai Municipal Government. Under one of the five riverside themes of the master plan,Xinhua Waterfront Park is situated in the cultural corridor section with the total area of 17 hm2. It is east of historic Minsheng Port at the Huangpu River and west of the waterfront shipyard, connecting important city streets. West 8’s design for Xinhua Waterfront Park will turn the east coast of Huangpu River to a integrated waterfront corridor with new city squares and waterfront public green space, complete with cycling tracks connecting to the city center. Amongst many design features, Baizi Square(Hundred-Sons Square) with a alcove-form seating element integrated with a retaining wall is inspired by the traditional symbol of a long-living turtle can be called a local cultured inspired feature. We imagined the gatherings of many young and old, the social coherence of the old days of Chinese culture while designing it (Fig. 2-4).

LA: When working on international projects, you have to switch from different culture. When you start a new project, do you have some skills to get involved quickly? And how do you get to know those cultures and lifestyles which few people know of?

Christian: History of a place teaches us the story. Story is often told by arts. Paintings, poetry,literature, and simple many of the folk’s story are at times some great sources for our inspiration.Most simple way is sometimes just to go to sit in an existing public garden or park to watch the locals. They will provide all we need to know about how people at a certain place connect with their nature. Very similar to a chef cook visiting another country will try and learn from the local dishes for inspirations and insights. We enjoy visiting the existing master gardens of a place before we start to make a new design for certain new projects.

LA: West 8 is good at creating unique and high recognizable objects. Does it belong to a part of design strategy?

10 West 8作品：紐約總督島West 8’s project, Governors island

Christian: ‘Create an address’ is indeed a technique we do apply in urban and landscape design. It is what we truly believe what it matters in our profession. We create a place, a second nature, where people will come back to, where their memory lane can cling on to, where they feel engaged in, where they feel they belong to. No matter it will be a garden, or a street, square or a waterfront. It involves more different ways than just to create one-of-a kind objects. It is part of it, but not the only way, or say, all of it. There are different ways to reinforce the culture to which they belong. We look into the context while creating second nature. It is a logic based on utility and necessity. It gives an identity, but sometimes is also an expression of local context. That is why there is no formula in West 8 design. Every site is not the same because very site is unique (Fig. 5-8).

LA: West 8 has been working on more and more complex projects. For instance, the America Governors Island Mountain Park and it is much more than an urban park. Is it deliberately involved with large scale complex projects? Or is that a trend in this industry?

Christian: For already 30 years working on an international level from its start, West 8 developed projects all over the world in places such as Copenhagen,London, Moscow, New York, Madrid, Hamburg, Toronto, Amsterdam, Shanghai and Seoul. Some of them are sub-projects derived from large-scale urban planning. Many of the large scale projects are the result of groundbreaking entries in important international competitions. Recently won competitions include also West Kowloon Cultural District Park in Hong Kong. The Governors Island project was started by winning an international design competition in 2006 for the design of Governors Island Park—a 172-acre island in the New York Harbor (Fig. 9-10).

With our multi-disciplinary approach to complex design issues, West 8 has extensive experience in large-scale urban master planning and design,landscape interventions, waterfront projects, parks, squares and gardens. We also develop concepts and visions for large-scale planning issues that address global warming, urbanization and infrastructure. Many of these urban design and globalissues are dealt with most ef ficiently in a multi-disciplinary approach. Our of fice with a multi-national team is there very well equipped for and has been very successful with. Many of the nowadays scholars tend to classify our approach as ‘landscape urbanism’, a term we find we can resonate with. In fact our Madrid Río project, essentially a park design, has recently won the Veronica Rudge Green Prize for Urban Design offered by Harvard Design School.

LA: Finally, could you please talk about your expectations or wishes of this expo?

Christian: We have very high expectation of the gardens. We see that a lot of designers join the event and they are very talented people. We have seen previous great success of the show. At the same time, we also feel the pressure.First, we should realize the fair in the highest possible level. We have chosen to make the design. How to practice is the next question. I really hope to see 16 million viewers share their experiences together.

ZHENG: The Beijing Expo 2019 is on the 70th anniversary of founding of China and I believe that more people from all walks of life and all over the world will get together in Beijing visiting the expo, so I’m really looking forward to it. I remember that the last A1-level (the highest level) International Horticultural Expo was held in Kunming, China in 1999, which has promoted the rapid development of the landscape architecture industry. So that in the recent 20 years, any city which want to hold expos in different scale and levels will look back to the Kunming Expo 1999 and this is because it has played a leading role. I also hope that the A1- level International Horticultural Expo will be held in Beijing in the next 20 years, and it can not only bring great social effects, but also drive landscape architecture to develop so that it can lead the industry in the next 20 years once more!

Acknowledgement:Thank ZHANG Boya for her contribution to this interview during early preparation period.

Notes:

Fig. 1 is provided by ZHENG Xi; Fig.2-4 are provided by West 8；Fig. 5, 6 are photographed by Jeroen Musch; Fig. 7 is photographed by Luke Harley; Fig. 8 is photographed by Nicola Betts; Fig. 9, 10 are photographed by Timothy Schenk.