貝納德塔·達(dá)格利亞布艾訪談

2017年5月底，在貝納德塔·達(dá)格利亞布艾作為普利茲克建筑獎(jiǎng)評(píng)委訪華之際，《世界建筑》對(duì)她進(jìn)行了簡(jiǎn)短的采訪。

WA: 盡管有一些遲，但我仍然想說(shuō)，恭喜您成為普利茲克獎(jiǎng)的評(píng)委。

貝納德塔·達(dá)格利亞布艾（BT）: 謝謝。

WA: 我們聽說(shuō)您正在行程緊湊的評(píng)審團(tuán)之旅當(dāng)中，您覺(jué)得這次旅行如何？

BT: 這是一次非常開心的旅行。普利茲克評(píng)審團(tuán)的每一次旅行都非常有趣。我們會(huì)遇到許多人，有許多新的發(fā)現(xiàn)。

WA:旅行中有沒(méi)有看一些中國(guó)建筑？

BT: 我們中有一位中國(guó)評(píng)委，建筑師張永和。雖然他正逐漸淡出，但是新生代的中國(guó)建筑師正在不斷涌現(xiàn)，我認(rèn)為他將會(huì)帶領(lǐng)我們認(rèn)識(shí)更多值得普利茲克獎(jiǎng)關(guān)注的新一代中國(guó)建筑師。普利茲克獎(jiǎng)本身是一個(gè)世界性的獎(jiǎng)項(xiàng)，很多時(shí)候它只能走進(jìn)五大洲之一?；蛟S許多年前評(píng)獎(jiǎng)更容易一些，大獎(jiǎng)多次被歐洲或美國(guó)建筑師獲得?，F(xiàn)在則完全不同，評(píng)審團(tuán)成員來(lái)自不同的大陸，比如澳大利亞、中國(guó)、巴西和印度。獎(jiǎng)項(xiàng)更多地著眼于世界各國(guó)。

WA: 您這次會(huì)在中國(guó)停留多久？

BT: 我們只在中國(guó)停留3天，但是如果算上在日本的行程，這會(huì)是一次很長(zhǎng)的旅行。

WA: 在您看來(lái)，普利茲克獎(jiǎng)新評(píng)審團(tuán)的關(guān)注點(diǎn)是否存在著轉(zhuǎn)變？

BT: 我認(rèn)為是的，雖然我自己也是評(píng)委中的新面孔。看上去回答“是”是件很容易的事，但實(shí)際上并不是這樣的。評(píng)審團(tuán)正在適應(yīng)一個(gè)全新的局面，世界更加一體化，不同國(guó)籍的建筑師開始到世界的另一端進(jìn)行設(shè)計(jì)。中國(guó)建筑師也開始受邀到歐洲和美國(guó)進(jìn)行設(shè)計(jì)。整個(gè)行業(yè)都在變得更加開放，人們的關(guān)注點(diǎn)逐漸轉(zhuǎn)向整個(gè)世界共同的問(wèn)題，而非僅存在于一部分發(fā)達(dá)地區(qū)的問(wèn)題。所以我認(rèn)為審查團(tuán)變得更加關(guān)注社會(huì)問(wèn)題，更加關(guān)注如何才能讓這個(gè)全球性的社會(huì)更好地運(yùn)行。我認(rèn)為這是大家所真正尋求的。WA: RCR 建筑事務(wù)所是今年的獲獎(jiǎng)?wù)?。他們的現(xiàn)代建筑風(fēng)格以當(dāng)?shù)仫L(fēng)土為基礎(chǔ)并關(guān)注當(dāng)?shù)赜邢薜慕ㄖ牧?。您與他們都來(lái)自加泰羅尼亞文化，但作品與他們的有很大不同。您的作品具有后現(xiàn)代風(fēng)格，注入了一種更加國(guó)際化的視野，并采取了很多高科技的解決方案。在2010年的上海世博會(huì)之后，沒(méi)有人能夠預(yù)測(cè)您下一個(gè)作品會(huì)采用什么材料。作為評(píng)委，或者作為建筑師，您如何看待這兩種不同的趨向？

1 貝納德塔·達(dá)格利亞布艾/Benedetta Tagliabue（攝影/Photo:Lluc Miralles）

BT: 我認(rèn)為作為一位評(píng)委，你需要給予采取與你不同的工作方式的人充分的評(píng)價(jià)。我們的日本之旅就是一個(gè)不錯(cuò)的例子。我與RCR非常熟悉，同時(shí)我們又都說(shuō)加泰羅尼亞語(yǔ)。一起考察建筑作品時(shí)，我們時(shí)常持有不同的觀點(diǎn)?！叭绻俏以O(shè)計(jì)，我會(huì)把這部分去掉。”“這是這個(gè)作品最棒的地方，為什么要去掉？”我喜歡這樣的爭(zhēng)論。

我知道他們的做法有時(shí)候非常不同，但我認(rèn)為作為評(píng)委最重要的就是要盡量客觀，并真正地看到他人的能力和價(jià)值。所以，我認(rèn)為他們非常特別。他們關(guān)注基地、充分利用地形、同時(shí)又在需要改變地形時(shí)進(jìn)行徹底的改變，他們的這些設(shè)計(jì)特質(zhì)都是我非常欣賞的。我熱愛(ài)并欣賞他們的作品，即使換成我自己設(shè)計(jì)時(shí)我不會(huì)那么做。我認(rèn)為普利茲克獎(jiǎng)是他們應(yīng)得的。

WA: 您提到評(píng)審團(tuán)應(yīng)該更多地去關(guān)心“大問(wèn)題”，但是您仍然選擇了RCR，這其中的原因是什么？BT: 這是一個(gè)很好的問(wèn)題。你可以說(shuō)他們的作品不那么具有社會(huì)性，但實(shí)際上并非如此。比如說(shuō)，他們決定將事務(wù)所設(shè)置在郊外。他們離城市很近，事務(wù)所最初也是在巴塞羅那創(chuàng)辦的，因而他們完全可以繼續(xù)在城市里工作。然而他們選擇留在他們的社區(qū)，這就意味著在這個(gè)社區(qū)當(dāng)中他們是非常具有社會(huì)性的。他們開始為提供周圍環(huán)境所需要的東西而努力。一名員工的住宅、公園、學(xué)校、一位朋友的美麗的餐廳、一座特別的酒店……這些作品并非不像亞歷杭德羅·阿拉維納的作品那樣具有很直接的社會(huì)性，但在作品本身所在的環(huán)境中來(lái)看，仍然是具有社會(huì)性的。有時(shí)他們直接參與作品的建造，親身砌筑起建筑的一部分，我認(rèn)為這樣的技藝，這種追求有用性和扎根當(dāng)?shù)氐哪芰κ欠浅＞哂忻栏械?，我們?yīng)當(dāng)給予這種美感很高的評(píng)價(jià)。我不認(rèn)為我們應(yīng)當(dāng)永遠(yuǎn)只把獎(jiǎng)?lì)C給那些為幫助這個(gè)社會(huì)中最貧困的人群而努力的人。建筑具有很多不同的特性，我們需要把這些特性都納入到考量范圍中來(lái)，而不是只關(guān)注其中的一部分。

WA: 我們于2004年出版了一期EMBT專輯。專輯中您事務(wù)所在前15年，完成了一系列出色的項(xiàng)目。這些項(xiàng)目在當(dāng)時(shí)都是嶄新而充滿激情的。13年后的今天，您的事務(wù)所已經(jīng)成立了將近30年，它的發(fā)展歷程中有哪些意義重大的階段？哪些項(xiàng)目對(duì)于你們來(lái)說(shuō)是最為重要的？

WA: Maybe it is a bit late, but I still want to say,congratulations on being the member of the Pritzker jury.

Benedetta Tagliabue (BT): Thank you very much.

WA: As we knew, you are in a jury's trip with a very tight schedule. Did you have fun?

BT: Yes. It's lovely. Every trip with the Pritzker jury is very interesting. We met a lot of people, we had discoveries.

WA: Did you have a look at some Chinese architecture?

BT: We had a member of jury who is Chinese,Architect Yung Ho Chang. He is stepping out, but the new Chinese architect is entering so maybe he will make us understand many new generations in China who will be worthwhile for the prize. It's very big, you know, the prize, because it's for the complete world. So sometimes it goes in one of the five continents. Maybe years ago it was easier, it was going in Europe or United States. Now it's very di ff erent and the new jury will have more members from different continents, Australia, China, Brazil,and India. It will be really looking more worldwide.

WA: How many days will you stay in China?

BT: We will be here only three days. But together with the trip to Japan, it will be a very long trip.

WA: In your view, is there a shift of focus in the new Pritzker jury?

BT: I say yes, but I don't know, I have been fresh. It's very easy to say yes but maybe not really.The jury is adapting to the situation; now we have a situation where I think the world is more united, we have architects from different nationalities, working on the other side of the world, and now it's also to be with Chinese architects who start to be invited in Europe and United States. So this is really opening up, and the focus is starting to become more about the problems of the complete world, no not only about the problem of the most the civilized parts of the world, like it used to be, but of everybody. So, in a way I think the jury is more conscious about social problems and how to reinvent the global society in a way that it can function better. I think this is,something that I see everybody really looking for.

WA: RCR Arquitectes was the laureate of this year.Their works have modern architecture style based on local land and focus on the limited materials.It seems different with your works even though both of you are in the Catalan. Your works are postmodern style with a larger international view and using high-tech solutions. After Shanghai Expo 2010, no one knows what is the material in your next project. But how do you understand these two directions as a jury member or an architect?

BT: I understand that being a judge, you have to give credit also to people who work in a way which is not exactly yours. It was kind of nice in these days in Japan. Because with RCR which I know very well and we share the same language. We speak Catalan together. We were looking at the architecture, and we were giving comments, which I was not agreed."This piece of this architecture, I would have taken out." "This is the best one. Why do?" And I like it.

I was thinking, I know they have sometimes a very di ff erent approach, but I think it is important as a member of the jury, to be more objective, and to really value the capacities of other people. So I think they are very special, and they have many qualities which I also appreciate very much of this attention to the site, working with the topography, changing the topography and also being kind of radical in the way of doing. I love their work and appreciate them very much even if I wouldn't do the same. I think they deserve the prize.

WA: As you said, the new jury will care more about the big issues, but you still selected RCR. Why?

BT: Yeah. It could be a question. Because you can say they're not social, but it's not true. For example,the fact that they decided to live outside the city.The city is very near. They started in Barcelona, so it wouldn't have been a problem but they decided to stay in their neighbourhood. It means that they are very social in this neighbourhood. They started to work for what was needed in the surrounding.The house for one of their workers or park or schools, or,then a beautiful restaurant for one of their friends, a special hotel… I mean all of this is really not directly social like it was with Alejandro Aravena, but very social from the place they're acting. Sometimes they worked themselves, there they are themselves physically doing parts of their architecture, so I think this craft, and this capacity of being useful whatever you are, and staying wherever you are,is something beautiful, I think we have to value this is so much. I don't think we have to go on and give prizes all the time to people who are doing everything in terms of helping socially the poorest.Architecture has many qualities, and we have to take them in account, that it's not only doing a part of it.

WA: We published an issue of EMBT in 2004. In the first 15 years, EMBT finished a lot of brilliant projects. They were fresh new and filled with passion. By now, after 13 years, almost 30 years since your firm founded, do you think you have some signi fi cant phases in the developing process?Which projects are most important to you?

BT: My partner died in 2000 so by now it's 17 years.I think it's certainly something that I was always kind of avoiding the same question: Where are you going now? When the tragedy happened that he died, I said I don't know, I'm going in the same direction. By going the same direction, it is just finding new paths, and when you fi nd it just follow them. So you fi nd yourself in different direction if you look back. And now little by little we were moving in the realm of public competitions, public work, and I think now we are very much into structures, working on public structures,which have a very important focus, in the people, in what happens in the surrounding, how architecture is a ff ecting the feelings of everybody. So, I think this is something which is, now my main focus or our main focus in the office, probably it was also before, but now we are more conscious, for example we are working on a subway station, in a very difficult part of Paris, in the outskirt. I think it is really not only about making a station or a beautiful station, but also the making of space and surrounding, where the people can really feel. It is the place that they belong to, and you know this kind of pride of being part of the place, instead of the opposite, which is the course of social discontent.So we are very much into this.In this sense for example, we are working on the subway stations both in Paris and in Naples. In both places, we were also collaborating with other artists.This is very nice because we were talking about social, being social, I think art can be very social, can have a very important function for people, and it's not a super fi cial way, is something very important.In Naples, we have one of the station of a line which is already in use, and it's very evident, Naples is a very wonderful city, a city which has destroyed itself,when they fi nd a beautiful piece of architecture with a fantastic piece of art, there is an incredible respect happening, and these stations are treated as jewels by the citizens. It is really incredible.

BT: 我的合伙人在17年前，也就是2000年去世了。這件事對(duì)我的影響很大，以至于我似乎總是在回避同一個(gè)問(wèn)題：你將走向何方？悲劇剛剛發(fā)生時(shí)，我回答說(shuō)我不知道，我還是會(huì)沿著原來(lái)的方向走下去。繼續(xù)堅(jiān)持原有方向意味著需要尋找新的路徑，一旦找到了就沿著這條路一直走下去。如果回頭，你就會(huì)發(fā)現(xiàn)你已經(jīng)走向了一個(gè)不同的方向。現(xiàn)在我們逐漸投入到公共空間的競(jìng)賽和公共項(xiàng)目當(dāng)中。我們熱愛(ài)公共構(gòu)筑物，因?yàn)檫@樣的工作聚焦于人，關(guān)注周遭發(fā)生的事物，關(guān)注建筑給所有人的感受帶來(lái)的變化。可能我們過(guò)去也關(guān)注過(guò)這一方面，但是現(xiàn)在這種意識(shí)更為強(qiáng)烈。比如，我們現(xiàn)在正在設(shè)計(jì)的一座地鐵站，它位于巴黎郊外一個(gè)很棘手的區(qū)域。我認(rèn)為這個(gè)項(xiàng)目的目的不僅是建造一座車站或者建造一座美麗的車站，還在于創(chuàng)造一個(gè)人們能夠真正感受到的空間和環(huán)境。人們應(yīng)當(dāng)能夠在這里找到歸屬感，找到成為這個(gè)空間的一部分所帶來(lái)的自豪感。而在無(wú)法找到這樣的歸屬感和自豪感時(shí)，社會(huì)性的不滿才會(huì)發(fā)生。因此，我們熱愛(ài)這樣的工作。

我們實(shí)際上在巴黎和那不勒斯同時(shí)進(jìn)行著地鐵站的設(shè)計(jì)。這兩個(gè)項(xiàng)目中，我們都與不同的藝術(shù)家進(jìn)行了合作。這也是一件非常好的事情。我們一直在談?wù)撋鐣?huì)性，體現(xiàn)社會(huì)性，而藝術(shù)則具有很高的社會(huì)性，能夠?qū)θ水a(chǎn)生很大的影響，而且是深層次的影響，這是非常重要的。我們?cè)谀遣焕账顾O(shè)計(jì)的車站位于一條已經(jīng)開通的線路上。那不勒斯是一座非常美麗的城市，同時(shí)又是一座曾經(jīng)遭到嚴(yán)重破壞的城市。因此當(dāng)人們發(fā)現(xiàn)一座與精美的藝術(shù)融為一體的美妙建筑時(shí)，他們會(huì)展現(xiàn)出驚人的尊重。這些車站被市民們當(dāng)作珍寶，令人感到萬(wàn)分驚喜。

WA: 當(dāng)您獲得英國(guó)皇家建筑師學(xué)會(huì)的查爾斯·詹克斯獎(jiǎng)時(shí)，他用“復(fù)合了多種形式觀的凝集型建筑”來(lái)表達(dá)您的作品中藝術(shù)與建筑形式之間的關(guān)系。您怎么看這一評(píng)價(jià)？

BT: 我認(rèn)為建筑本身就是一種藝術(shù)，所以無(wú)論你采取什么方式創(chuàng)造建筑，它都有藝術(shù)的一面。這也取決于是讓藝術(shù)具有自身的價(jià)值，還是讓它成為你即將建造的建筑所具有的整體價(jià)值的一部分。因此，人們可以從不同的角度對(duì)兩者之間的關(guān)系進(jìn)行詮釋，而RCR或者我們的做法正是其中的一種。比如，我們都認(rèn)為從藝術(shù)的角度來(lái)看，建造也具有其自身的價(jià)值，我堅(jiān)信這一點(diǎn)。我非常感謝查爾斯·詹克斯所給予的評(píng)價(jià)。

2 克里希-孟費(fèi)21地鐵站，巴黎，法國(guó)/21 Clichy-Montfermeil Metro Station, Paris, France

WA: 您也有一個(gè)中國(guó)項(xiàng)目，是著名藝術(shù)家張大千的博物館。這座博物館的主題是藝術(shù)。您在中國(guó)是否獲得了一些特殊的想法和體驗(yàn)？

3 那不勒斯地鐵中央站，那不勒斯，意大利，2017/Naples Underground Central Station, Naples, Italy, 2017（2.3圖片來(lái)源/Image courtesy: EMBT）

4 張大千美術(shù)館，內(nèi)江，中國(guó)/ZHANG Daqian Museum, Neijiang（圖片來(lái)源/Image courtesy: EMBT）

BT: 我希望這座博物館能夠順利地建成，它應(yīng)該會(huì)很棒。因?yàn)槲覀冎贿M(jìn)行了概念設(shè)計(jì)而且?guī)缀醪豢赡苓M(jìn)行更多常規(guī)的工地指導(dǎo)。我們盡可能做到最好，卻也無(wú)法超越我們的能力范圍，更無(wú)法超越博物館的館藏本身。我們?cè)噲D用一種輕松的方式來(lái)詮釋張大千，就像他用一種輕松的態(tài)度來(lái)理解世界并不斷發(fā)現(xiàn)驚喜的過(guò)程一樣。這也是我愛(ài)張大千的一點(diǎn)。他總是在進(jìn)行創(chuàng)造并不斷感受到每一個(gè)事物所帶來(lái)的驚喜。他的繪畫作品是那么美，并且總是在向觀者講述超越畫中事物的更多東西。他是一位出色的藝術(shù)家，因此，我們?yōu)樗O(shè)計(jì)的博物館是輕松的，一種不同于幽默的輕松。它并不是一棟建筑，也不是一個(gè)集中的大空間，而是清晰地嵌入到景觀當(dāng)中的一系列展館。這個(gè)設(shè)計(jì)更加注重創(chuàng)造景觀本身。當(dāng)人們看到這一系列展館時(shí)，應(yīng)當(dāng)能夠?qū)⑺鼈円暈樽匀坏囊徊糠?。它們與基地原有的那些美麗的古樹交織在一起，與場(chǎng)地固有的文脈共存。我曾經(jīng)多次詢問(wèn)館藏內(nèi)容是什么，我與一些專家進(jìn)行了討論，但我們?nèi)匀粺o(wú)從知曉。如果可能，我希望這座小小的博物館能夠展現(xiàn)張大千多種多樣的創(chuàng)作方式。比如他設(shè)計(jì)了自己的住宅和景觀，他與他的朋友共同創(chuàng)作，他進(jìn)行寫作并書寫了很多美妙的信件，他自己進(jìn)行烹飪并向他的朋友們解說(shuō)即將上桌的菜肴。我認(rèn)為所有這些活動(dòng)都是藝術(shù)，如果這座博物館能夠展現(xiàn)出這一點(diǎn)，它將會(huì)非常吸引人。我們?yōu)閷?shí)現(xiàn)這個(gè)目標(biāo)貢獻(xiàn)了我們的力量。

WA: When you got RIBA Charles Jencks Award, he said your architecture is "agglutinative architecture"with "compound idea of many forms". It is about art and architectural forms. What's your opinion?

BT: I think architecture is an art, so in whatever way you approach it, there is this artistic part. It's also a question to put it into value or to consider it when you do it as part of the value of the construction you're going to do. So I think then you're interpreting in di ff erent way, in one way like RCR or what we do. Both of us, for example, we know that the value of the construction is also in this artistic point of view. I believe that. I'm very grateful that Charles Jencks gave this description.

WA: You have a project in China, a museum for ZHANG Daqian who is a famous artist. The museum is about art. Are there any special ideas and experience in China?

BT: I hope this museum will be well-constructed and it will be nice. Because we just gave the concept and it was not possible to do much more to have regular site supervision. We do our best, but we don't have the possibility to be very much on top of that, especially on top of the content. But I think we are trying to interpret ZHANG Daqian in a kind of light way of understanding the world or this kind of surprise. I love ZHANG Daqian about this. He was always kind of inventing things and totally surprised about everything. You look at his paintings, they are so beautiful, they tell you more than what would you fi nd them. He is a fantastic artist, so we did a project which is not humoristic but kind of light-hearted.It's not one building, or one big place. It's a series of pavilions so it is very clear that it's something which is inserted in the landscape. It's more about the making landscapes themselves. When I look at the pavilions, they could be pieces of nature in a way.They are mingled with beautiful trees because in that place you have very high old trees, so it's about being together with that. I asked many times what will be the content, we still don't know I introduced some experts or but it's not easy to have control over that, I would like this this small museum, if possible, to explain the many di ff erent ways of the artist ZHANG Daqian's work. He was working with landscape, for example, he was doing his own houses and the landscape. He was working with his friends,he was writing things and making beautiful letters,he was working with food, he was explaining to his friends what they were going to eat and then he was cooking himself. So, I think all of these is art, it would be fantastic to explain these in this museum.And on our side, we tried a little bit to do that.

5 張大千美術(shù)館建設(shè)中/Under construction, ZHANG Daqian Museum（攝影/Photo: Arch-Exist）

WA: 這是一個(gè)非常有趣的項(xiàng)目，它所在的自然環(huán)境也非常令人驚喜。

BT: 是的，它非常特別。一座新建筑可以非常成功，也可能會(huì)不那么成功。因?yàn)檫@是一個(gè)需要在建造過(guò)程中悉心照料的項(xiàng)目，而現(xiàn)在的我們無(wú)法做到這一點(diǎn)。我們只能作為觀察者來(lái)回答這樣的提問(wèn)：這樣可以嗎？我們只能做到改變一部分顏色，但是……中國(guó)的工作方式很不一樣，我們也正在學(xué)習(xí)。

WA: 現(xiàn)在正在建設(shè)的項(xiàng)目中，哪一個(gè)是您最喜歡的？

BT: 我們現(xiàn)在在臺(tái)灣有個(gè)大規(guī)模的項(xiàng)目正在建設(shè)之中。它并不是一座真正意義上的社會(huì)性建筑，因?yàn)闃I(yè)主直接邀請(qǐng)我們?yōu)樗麄冊(cè)O(shè)計(jì)公司的總部大樓。我們?cè)诎腿_那為一個(gè)大公司設(shè)計(jì)并建造過(guò)總部大樓。臺(tái)灣的這座總部大樓并不僅僅展示這家公司的實(shí)力，它一方面是有力量的，另一方面也在試圖貢獻(xiàn)更多東西，試圖對(duì)鄰里街區(qū)、街道、路過(guò)它的行人展現(xiàn)出慷慨的一面。這座33層的大樓座落在臺(tái)中高樓林立的市中心。我們采用盡可能柔軟的設(shè)計(jì)，充分尊重街道和周邊環(huán)境。它有非常宜人的露臺(tái)，這些露臺(tái)的設(shè)計(jì)尊重室內(nèi)和室外的人們。整座大樓有些像一棵樹，這也源于公司創(chuàng)始人自己的故事。這家公司的創(chuàng)始人在這個(gè)項(xiàng)目即將開始時(shí)去世，他的兒子告訴我們希望這座大樓看上去像一棵樹，因?yàn)椤皹洹蓖瑫r(shí)也包含在他父親的名字里。我們樂(lè)于接受這樣的挑戰(zhàn)，因?yàn)槲覀兿Ｍ軌騽?chuàng)造出更具有現(xiàn)實(shí)意義的作品，同時(shí)也希望能夠?qū)⒐颈旧淼挠洃浫谌肫渲?。這座建筑正在逐漸生長(zhǎng)，我認(rèn)為它看起來(lái)很棒。

我們還有一個(gè)位于復(fù)旦大學(xué)的項(xiàng)目正在建設(shè)當(dāng)中。這也是一座非常大的建筑綜合體，我們希望能夠通過(guò)這座建筑讓大學(xué)成為城市的一部分。它的景觀不應(yīng)該僅存在于建筑的外圍，更應(yīng)當(dāng)延伸到建筑內(nèi)部來(lái)，而我們的設(shè)計(jì)做到了這一點(diǎn)。我們完全沒(méi)有參與這個(gè)項(xiàng)目的施工階段，因此我們不知道它現(xiàn)在進(jìn)展如何。明天我將回到上海，希望能夠有時(shí)間去看一看。

6 中國(guó)信托大廈，臺(tái)中，中國(guó)/Taichung Tower, Taichung, China（圖片來(lái)源/Image courtesy: EMBT）

WA: 希望聽到您的好消息。

BT: 我也很期待。

WA: 您明天晚上將作為演講嘉賓參加同濟(jì)大學(xué)的論壇。您想要傳遞什么樣的信息？

BT: 我想我會(huì)談?wù)勎以?jīng)也和你談過(guò)的一些問(wèn)題，有關(guān)建筑是如何具有影響力的，建筑如何影響它的使用者，我們?nèi)绾文軌蜃屛覀兯ㄔ斓目臻g比以往更好，或者為使用者帶來(lái)比以往更好的使用感受。這些事情聽上去似乎很簡(jiǎn)單，但都需要付出畢生的努力。

WA: 您認(rèn)為有哪些趨勢(shì)是建筑師們應(yīng)當(dāng)更多關(guān)注的？

7 中國(guó)信托大廈建設(shè)中/Under construction, Taichung Tower（攝影/Photo: Yu Chen Tsao）

BT: 我喜歡在設(shè)計(jì)過(guò)程中關(guān)注材料。我對(duì)2012年普利茲克獎(jiǎng)獲得者王澍所做的嘗試很感興趣。我認(rèn)為一些建筑師的作品非常關(guān)注材料和材料本身所具有的能力，并能夠不斷針對(duì)這些能力進(jìn)行創(chuàng)新。我們?nèi)匀恍枰獎(jiǎng)?chuàng)新，并且需要在超越實(shí)際需求的基礎(chǔ)上理解創(chuàng)新本身的意義?！?/p>

WA: It's a very interesting project in amazing natural environment

BT: Yeah, it's very special. The new construction could be good or could be not so good, because this is a project maybe that has to be looked after very much, and it's now we cannot do very much. We can observe and they sometimes ask: is it okay?The maximum we can do is changing the colour of something but…. It is a different way in China, so we're learning.

WA: Which project under construction is your favourite?

BT: Now we have a big project under construction in Taiwan. It's not precisely something which is very social, because it was a big company who came and asked us to design their new headquarter. We have done one headquarter for a big company in Barcelona. But it's not corporate in the sense that the building is only showing its power, It's a building which is very powerful, but in the same time tries to give something, try to be generous to the neighbours or to the street or to what you find outside to the passers-by, so we had to design a tower of thirtythree floors, we try to make it as soft as possible,with respect to the street and to the situation ,which is kind of a downtown with high-rises in Taiwan in a tycoon city called Taichung, in a new kind of city centre. And you will have these terraces which are nice and respectful to the people inside but also to the people outside. And the building looks a little bit like a tree. It was also because of a personal story of the founder of the company. So, the founder of the company died very little before we started the project, and the son told us that he would like the building looks a little like a tree, because this was the name of the father. So, it's really very good for us because we love to make something a little realistic,but also in this case we will represent a memory of the company itself. So, this is growing and I think it look nice.

We have a project in Fudan University under construction. This is also a very big complex, where we try to make the university be part of the city so that you have a big landscape not only in the external facade but also coming inside. And the architecture is really working with all of that. We are not involved in the construction at all, so we know nothing.Tomorrow I will go back to Shanghai and maybe we will have the time should go on and give a look.

WA: Hope you have good news.

BT: Let's see.

WA: You would be the lecturer of the forum in Tongji University tomorrow night. What will you try to express?

BT: I think I will try to express a little bit of what I've told you before, about how architecture can be in fl uential, how architecture can be in fl uential with the people who use them, and how we can try our best to make the space we build better than it was before, or making the feeling of the people who use them better.This seems very simple but I think it's a work for a lifetime.

WA: Which tendencies should be paid with more attentions to by architects?

BT: I like very much working with attention with materials, for example, the Pritzker laurate WANG Shu in 2012. I'm very interested about what he does and I think some other people do this kind of work of being very attentive about the materials of architecture, about its capacities and being able to innovate in that. We still have to innovate and to try to be always on top of the necessity to understand what the innovation should be.

Interview with Benedetta Tagliabue

葉揚(yáng) 采訪/Interviewed by YE Yang
王欣欣 校/Proofread by WANG Xinxin
李璠 譯/Translated by LI Fan

8 復(fù)旦大學(xué)管理學(xué)院，上海，中國(guó)/Campus of Fudan School of Management, Shanghai, China（圖片來(lái)源/Image courtesy:EMBT）