葉揚 采訪/Interviewed by YE Yang

王欣欣 譯/Translated by WANG Xinxin

伯納德·屈米訪談

葉揚 采訪/Interviewed by YE Yang

王欣欣 譯/Translated by WANG Xinxin

2016年3月13日-6月19日，“伯納德·屈米——建筑：概念與記號”展在上海當代藝術(shù)博物館舉行，在展覽開幕后，《世界建筑》對伯納德·屈米進行了簡短的訪談。

WA：您的父親是一名優(yōu)秀的建筑師。請問他是否對您產(chǎn)生了影響？

伯納德·屈米：我的父親的確是一名優(yōu)秀的建筑師，并且在我挺小的時候就去世了，因此我沒有太多機會與他討論建筑。我的作品是相對獨立地形成的。實際上，我受到了1968年“質(zhì)疑”時期的影響。畢業(yè)后的那段時間是我進行建筑設(shè)計實驗的階段，先是在倫敦后來在紐約，我進行了很多探索，但都與真實的建筑有所不同。多年之后，我才逐漸理解了我父親作品中的建筑內(nèi)涵與構(gòu)造藝術(shù)，并且非常認同。然而，在早期，（我們之間的交流）那是完全分離的。

WA：您著名的拉維萊特公園是一個建筑通過形式干預(yù)表達社會批判的代表作品。這是否受到了德波的情境主義思想的影響？

屈米：是的，我對情境主義有比較強的意識。德波對城市感興趣，我也對城市感興趣，甚至我對城市的興趣要遠遠大于對于建筑單體的興趣。比如，德波曾提出“漫游”的概念，即在某個城市環(huán)境中隨意地行走。因此，當我設(shè)計拉維萊特公園時，我說過它不僅僅是一個有著自然景觀的公園，而應(yīng)是城市的一個片段——一個有著樹景的城市片段。它需要的是活躍的、與文化相關(guān)的，并且引發(fā)人與人的邂逅和互動。于是我設(shè)計了點、線和面的系統(tǒng)——行動發(fā)出的點、運動產(chǎn)生的線以及自發(fā)行動形成的面。同樣，我也確信影響我的不只是情境主義，還有電影，比如讓·呂克·戈達爾的電影，以及哲學(xué)家，比如雅克·德里達，他們都在質(zhì)疑陳詞濫調(diào)，試圖創(chuàng)造新世界。

WA：作為“1968一代”的建筑師，對于當代建筑，請問您在廣義的人類發(fā)展層面上有何看法？

屈米：對于當代的情況，我的批判在于，現(xiàn)今，建筑師傾向于關(guān)注“物”、標識，以及那些代表了某種意象的建筑。我們對于建筑之間存在的相互關(guān)系、城市的運作機制關(guān)注得不夠多。這是一個我們需要再度關(guān)注的方面。

The power Station of Art hosts the architect and theorist Bernard Tschumi's exhibition BERNARD TSCHUMI - Architecture: Concept & Notation，which opens to the public on March 12th and runs through June 19th. World Architecture interviewed with Benard Tshumi after the openning.

WA： Your farther was a very good architect. Did he have any influence on you？

Bernard Tschumi （BT）： My father was a very good architect， and died when I was quite young. And I had not much opportunity to talk about architecture with him. I developed my work quite independently. And it was another era， I was influenced by the 1968 era of questioning， and after I finished my studies I was really in an experimental phase. In particular first in London and then in New York， I developed a lot of explorations， quite different from the real building. But it's much later when I started to build that I started to understand the architecture of sophistication and the art of construction of my father's and liked it very much. But in the early days it was completely， completely separate.

WA： Your most well-known work， parc de La Villette was one of the signs that architecture shows social critique through the form intervention. Did it have anything to do with Debord's situationism which was an important thought？

BT： Yes， I was very aware of Situationism. Debord was interested about the city， I was interested about the city， and I was even more interested about the city than I was interested about buildings and individual architecture. For example， there was a concept by Debord called， "dérive" in French， or "drift" in English， which means walking at random in an urban environment， so when I started to work on La Villette， I said it's not a park of nature， it's a piece of the city， but a piece of the city with trees， so it had to be active， it had to be cultural， it had to be the encounter and the interaction between people，and that is how I devised the system of points， lines and the surfaces-the points of actions， the lines of movements and the surfaces of spontaneous action.

1伯納德·屈米/Bernard Tschumi

2“伯納德·屈米——建筑：概念與記號”展覽現(xiàn)場/The exhibition BERNARD TSCHUMI - Architecture: Concept & Notation

3拉維萊特公園軸測/Axonometric of parc de La Villette

4拉維萊特公園/parc de La Villette

WA：在法國國家圖書館的競賽方案中，您曾經(jīng)設(shè)計了一條跑道。然而方案并沒有入選。多年之后，卻有很多建筑采用了這個想法，其中包括一些中國的建筑。對此您怎么看？

屈米：法國國家圖書館的方案確實是一個引發(fā)爭議的表達，不過它是一個引發(fā)爭議的嚴肅表達。對此我所指的是不同的功能是可以并存的——圖書館并非只能有書，音樂廳并非只能有音樂，美術(shù)館并非只能有美術(shù)作品——生活并非僅僅如此，生活中的各種活動是互相交織的。而建筑師應(yīng)該是那個提出交點的人?，F(xiàn)在，我們可以看到機場里不僅有酒店，還有商場、會議中心和教堂，它們都是并存的。這就是生活的演變。在圖書館的那個例子中，我設(shè)計了一條跑道，因為我曾說過——21世紀的運動員將會是知識分子，而21世紀的知識分子也將是運動員。不過我想那個時候提出這個理念太早了，評委們一個勁兒地搖頭。

WA：為何“符號”的概念對您的研究和設(shè)計那么重要呢？

屈米：原因其實很簡單。在想要描述運動的時候——關(guān)于人體在空間中的運動——或者想要描述活動和事件的時候，建筑師往往不具備充足的工具。我們會運用剖面、平面、軸測、透視圖，但這些都是非常靜態(tài)和被動的方式。如果想要描述建筑的動態(tài)使用，例如運動，則需要發(fā)明新的符號系統(tǒng)，因為它們并不存在。這是很復(fù)雜的事，原因在于我們還沒有形成有序的系統(tǒng)，并且只有少數(shù)建筑師愿意這么做——我們發(fā)明自己的系統(tǒng)，甚至是每次一個新的系統(tǒng)。但這仍然是非常重要的，這就是我所指的“符號”。這個詞語受到了音樂記譜法的影響——音樂家/作曲家會為同時演奏的不同樂器寫不同的譜子，鋼琴一行、小號一行、小提琴一行……而建筑師也應(yīng)該做到這點。更重要的是，符號中包括了“時間”。因此，我希望建筑符號是既包括空間也包括時間的。動到另一個更隱蔽的空間，諸如此類。這是很重要的概念。但是還有“文本”——人們談?wù)摻ㄖＮ艺J為這其中的結(jié)構(gòu)也是很重要的。當人們講故事的時候，會有一個敘事結(jié)構(gòu)存在其中。我想有些書籍是可以幫助大家理解這兩個概念在建筑層面的區(qū)別的。我推薦一本由伊塔洛·卡爾維諾著作的《看不見的城市》。這是一本非常美麗的書，因為它一直在講同一座城市，然而以完全不同的方式。這可以讓你理解城市的重要性，并且每次都以新的方式。建筑是關(guān)于世界的，并非僅限于建造各式各樣的好看的物體。

WA：您一度嘗試區(qū)分認知的形成和形式的認知，但是請問在設(shè)計過程中您是如何看待知識可視化的難題呢？

屈米：當我用手機或使用網(wǎng)絡(luò)，它并不具備一個可見的形態(tài)，但是卻創(chuàng)造了認知。這個認知應(yīng)該被理解為一種補充。也就是說，它們互相配合。當我通過電子媒體接收到復(fù)雜信息的同時，也通過環(huán)境接收信息，我認為這將會使我們的生活更豐富。因此我對我們社會的未來是樂觀的。然而，這并不是因為我們理解形式，這是因為我們擁有對于形式的認知。

WA：在當今虛擬網(wǎng)絡(luò)迅速擴張的背景下，該如何理解空間和事件的關(guān)系？

屈米：你們提出的問題都很好。的確，虛擬網(wǎng)絡(luò)正在改變我們互聯(lián)的方式，公共空間發(fā)生了改變。之前，廣場和街巷是非常重要的社交維度。而今，比如說，GPS已經(jīng)完全改變了我們在城市中行走的方式。我們互動的方式、和他人會面的方式，也都未必和從前一樣了。人們不再去廣場見面和交談，而是互相發(fā)送信息。因此，我們需要開始理解這個新的電子虛擬網(wǎng)絡(luò)對建筑的影響。然而，我認為現(xiàn)在還沒有對于這個問題的答案，這將是接下來20年我們需要解決的挑戰(zhàn)。（本文感謝建筑學(xué)者范路、周漸佳的幫助）

WA：對于敘事空間和文本空間的區(qū)別，您的觀點是什么？

屈米：這又是一個好問題?！皵⑹驴臻g”僅是指人們從中移動到另外一個空間的空間。例如，在所有的文化和宗教中，都有敘事空間。人們從一個空間移There's no question what was being done at the time was not only influenced by the Situationist， but also by films， films like Jean-Luc Godard's， or philosophers like Jacques Derrida who were questioning clichés and were trying to invent a new world.

WA： Being regarded as an architect from the generation of 1968， what is your opinion on the contemporary architecture related with human development in a broader sense？

BT： Regarding the contemporary situation， my criticism would be that， today， we architects tend to look at "objects"， at icons， at buildings which are an image； and we are not looking enough at how building relates to one another， and how the city works. This is something that we have to now concentrate again about.

WA： In your competition entry of la Bibliothèque Nationale， there was a running track in your proposal， but it was not chosen. After years， a numbers of buildings used this idea， including some Chinese buildings. Do you have any comments？

BT： The Bibliothèque Nationale was of course a polemical statement， but it was a serious polemical statement. I was saying that programs can mix with one another， that you don't have to have a library with only books， or you don't have to have a concert hall with only music， or you don't have to have a museum with only paintings， that life is different，life intersects different activities. And the architect should be the one to propose the intersection. Well， you have seen now that airports have hotels，shopping malls， conference centers and churches， all at the same place. That is the evolution of life. In the case of the library， whereas， I proposed that there would be a running track， because I said that the athlete of the 21st century will be an intellectual，and the intellectual of the 21st century will be an athlete. I think it was too early for that time， and they said "no， no".

WA： Why the concept of notation is so crucial in your research and design？

BT： The reason is very simple. If you want to talk about movement， about the movement of the body in space， if you want to talk about activities and events，then the tools of architects are often not sufficient. We learned to use sections， plans， axonometric，perspectives， but all these are very static， very passive means. If you want to talk about dynamic use of the building， like movement， you have to invent new systems of notation-they don't exist. It is very difficult to do that， because we don't have yet an organized system， there are few architects would do this， like us， and we all invent our own system，even from one project to the next. But it's still very important， and that is what I call "notation". The word was inspired by music notation， where the musician/ the composer can have one line for the piano， one line for the trumpet， one line for the violin， architects should be able to do that. More importantly， it is in "time". So I would like architectural notation to be about both space and time.

WA： In your opinion， what is the difference between space of narrative and space of text？

BT： This is also a good question. A narrative space can be only a space where you move from one space to another. For example， in all cultures and religions， there are narrative spaces， you move from one space to a more secret space and so on-that's important. But there is also the "text"-they talk about architecture， which I think are also important in terms of their structure. When you tell a story，there is also a narrative structure and you can make a relation. I think even there are certain books which through the words help you understand the nature of architectural differences. I give you the title of one book which I am sure is translated into Chinese-Invisible Cities， by Italo Calvino. It is a very beautiful book because it talks always about the same city，but in different ways. This allows you to understand that the city is really very important， every time it is another way to understand the world. Architecture is about the world， it is not simply about making beautiful objects-some looking like this， some looking like that.

WA： You try to distinguish between the forming of knowledge and the knowledge of form. But how do you think of the difficulties in visualizing knowledge in design process？

BT： When I do things with my iphone or with digital networking， it doesn't have a visible form， but it creates knowledge. and that knowledge is one that we have now to understand as a complementary. In other words， it goes together. I think it will make our life richer by having simultaneously very complex information that I will get through the digital media and at the same time information I get through the environment. So I am optimistic about the future of our society， but I feel that it is not because we know form， it is also because we have the knowledge of form.

WA： How to understand the relationship between space and event nowadays with the rapid expansion of virtual networking？

BT： You have very good questions. Indeed， it is changing how we relate， public space has become different. Before， the plaza， the street， was one very important social dimension. Today， for example，GpS has completely changed the way we walk in the city. The way we interact， to meet somebody，is also not necessarily the same. Instead of going to a square and talk， people are sending each other messages. So we have to start to understand what are the implications of this new digital virtual networking on architecture. And I don't think we have yet the answer， I think this is the challenge for the next 20 years. （Special Thanks to FAN Lu and ZHOU Jianjia for their contributions to this interview）

5-9展覽現(xiàn)場/The exhibition scences

Interview with Bernard Tschumi