Host： Today， graffiti： ancient stuff， modern stuff， and a kind of a clash between the ancient and the modern. You may have heard about the case earlier of the Chinese graffiti in Egypt. OK， so this kid gets given a really hard time， but maybe its just a bit unfair. Maybe he was just channeling the habits of antiquity，cause， in ancient times， graffiti， it didnt really 2）connote 3）vandalism the way that it does today. That may have been out of place in ancient Roman or Greek or Egyptian times， but graffiti certainly was around then， and not only was it around， it was kind of encouraged. So says Chloé Ragozalie. She studies ancient graffiti. Thats gotta be a fun job.

主持人：今天要談的是涂鴉，這是古老的東西，也是現(xiàn)代的東西，有點像古今碰撞的產(chǎn)物。你也許聽說過早些時候關于中國人在埃及留下涂鴉的事情。這個孩子因此受到了嚴厲的譴責，但這樣對他可能不太公平，也許他只不過是給我們呈現(xiàn)古時候的一種常見做法罷了，因為在古代，涂鴉并不像今天這樣被看成是一種恣意破壞的行為。涂鴉在古羅馬、古希臘或者古埃及也許不是平常事，但在當時，涂鴉肯定是存在的，而且不僅如此，這種行為可以說還受到了鼓勵。克洛伊·雷各扎立正是這樣告訴我們的，古代涂鴉是她的研究內(nèi)容，那一定是個有意思的工作。

Chloé： I would say that in ancient Egypt， it was socially accepted and maybe even expected on its part of showing off your status in life， where nowadays we see it as a 4）subversive 5）hooliganism attitude.

Host： Did leaders in ancient Egypt kind of encourage graffiti？

Chloé： Well， you have graffiti in pretty official places—a tomb， a temple—so you have the feeling that they were some kind of official， like a privilege， which was granted.

Host： And as you say， I mean it was kind of just an impulse for people， who were in a place， and they wanted to leave a memory that they were there to say“I was here，” but I mean， have you found anything 6）risqué that kind of corresponds to contemporary graffiti， 7）foul language， insults，…？

Chloé： Yeah， absolutely. You find criticism， you find private joke， you find 8）witticism， you even have 9）pornographic graffiti.

Host： So Im just curious， I mean as for the writing—not the drawings， but the writing—how was literacy at the time？ Could the average ancient Egyptian read what was written in this graffiti？

Chloé： No， absolutely not， and I think thats the mistake we made for a very long time. As Egyptologists， we considered this as， you know， secondary inscriptions， not realizing that they had to be made by very high officials because they were those who could write at the time. We consider that maybe one percent of the ancient Egyptian population could read and write.

克洛伊：在古代的埃及，涂鴉行為在社會上是被大家接受的，而且如果你想炫耀自己的身份，這種行為甚至是意料之中的事，但在當今社會，我們視之為具破壞性的流氓行為。

主持人；古埃及的領導人會鼓勵涂鴉行為嗎？

克洛伊：呃，涂鴉通常出現(xiàn)在帶官方色彩的地方，如陵墓、神廟等，所以你感覺得到這種行為有點像是官方賦予的特權(quán)。

主持人：正如你說的，我的意思是那通常是人的一時沖動，他們身處某處，會想在所到之處留下一點記憶，想說“我來過了”，但是，在你的研究當中，有沒有看到與我們現(xiàn)代社會相似的一些有傷風雅的涂鴉，比如說粗俗的語言、對其他人的侮辱……克洛伊：當然，絕對有。你會看到批評性涂鴉、私密的笑話、俏皮話，你還會看到色情涂鴉。

主持人：我很好奇，說到涂寫——我是指涂寫，而不是涂畫——當時有多少埃及人識字？在古埃及，普通人都看得懂涂鴉的內(nèi)容嗎？

克洛伊：看不明白，肯定看不懂。我覺得有很長一段時間，我們都犯了一個錯誤。我們這些專門研究埃及的學者把這些涂鴉看成是無關重要的銘文，并沒有意識到由于當時只有高官們會寫字，所以寫下這些涂鴉的人只能是他們。我們認為大概只有百分之一的古埃及人會讀寫。

Host： So thats Egypt. Im just curious where else in the world have you found ancient graffiti thats kind of surprised you？

Chloé： I would say everywhere I did look.

Host： Really？！

Chloé： Yes.

Host： And any place that doesnt have graffiti？

Chloé： When you dont find them is because you dont find a place where they could have been written on. Either the settlements have been destroyed. You know， even in Maya society obviously they had graffiti.

Host： Do you think graffiti anywhere around the world follows anything thematic？

Chloé： I would say that the main common feature is that its a social practice. Its something you do to be part of a community， and its still true nowadays， you know， with graffiti that we see as part of some underground culture and that can be pornographic or 10）transgressive. The people would do it…do it to be part of a group， of a group of naughty boys， if you want. And in ancient Egypt， in Rome， in China， each time its to claim are you belonging to a certain social group.

Host： So you do see similar messages， no matter where you go around the world？

Chloé： “I was there and I belong to that kind of group.”Its part of identity claiming. “I came here as a scribe.”In Greece， “I came here as a minor.”

Host： Right. Just like that kid from China. He was just there in Luxor saying “I was here.”

Chloé： When I saw that thing， I was amazed because thats the most basic graffiti from ancient Egypt to nowadays.

主持人：好，那是埃及的情況。我想問的是你在世界上別的什么地方看到過讓你吃驚的涂鴉嗎？

克洛伊：我研究的每一個地方都有。

主持人：真的？

克洛伊：對。

主持人：那有什么地方?jīng)]有涂鴉的嗎？

克洛伊：在沒有發(fā)現(xiàn)涂鴉的地方，那是因為你沒有找到他們可能涂鴉的地方。也許是他們當時的居民點早已被破壞。你知道嗎，即使是瑪雅社會里也很顯然有涂鴉存在。

主持人：你認為世界上所有地方的涂鴉都有一定的主題性嗎？

克洛伊：我認為最主要的共同特征是：涂鴉是一種社交行為。這是一個人歸屬于某個社群的行為標志。這一點，你知道，我們今天在一些非主流文化里看到的涂鴉也一樣，有些可能帶有色情意味，有的具有侵犯性。人們這樣做就是為了表示自己是某一個社群的一部分，或者說是壞孩子中的一員。在古埃及、古羅馬、古代中國，你的每一次涂鴉，都是要表明自己屬于某一個社群。

主持人：這么說來，你在世界上的所有地方，看到的涂鴉都傳達相似的信息嗎？

克洛伊：“我來過這里，我是某個社群的人?！边@是表明自己身份的一種做法?！拔沂且幻瓕憜T，我來過這里?！痹诠畔ＥD，“我是一名未成年人，我來過這里”。

主持人：正是，這就像中國的那個小孩子一樣，他在埃及的神廟里涂鴉留言正是表明“到此一游”。

克洛伊：看到那條消息，我很驚訝，因為從古代埃及到當今社會，這正是涂鴉中最常見的內(nèi)容。