采訪：張柔然 翻譯：陳欣 胡嘉鴻 校對：王長宏

布魯諾·馬奎斯（Bruno Marques）博士于2022年9月至今擔任國際風景園林師聯(lián)合會（International Federation of Landscape Architects,IFLA）主席，惠靈頓維多利亞大學（Victoria University of Wellington）建筑與設(shè)計創(chuàng)新學院副院長。他重點關(guān)注社區(qū)的健康福祉、毛利部落、康復景觀以及社區(qū)參與式風景園林設(shè)計的方法與實踐。此外，他也是“治療+康復設(shè)計環(huán)境/Taiao+Tumahu”研究實驗室 （Therapeutic+Rehabilitative Designed Environments, TRDE）的創(chuàng)始人之一，這個多學科和多機構(gòu)的研究實驗室致力于發(fā)展循證研究，以展示建筑、景觀和技術(shù)如何支持醫(yī)療健康的相關(guān)實踐。2023年4月，馬奎斯主席受邀參加了第十三屆中國風景園林學會年會以及由中國風景園林學會青年工作委員會主辦的“國際風景園林前沿論壇暨4.18國際古跡遺址日風景園林遺產(chǎn)保護青年專業(yè)人員論壇”?！讹L景園林》雜志社有幸對馬奎斯主席進行了專訪，深入探討風景園林中的人地關(guān)系。

LAJ：《風景園林》雜志社

Marques：布魯諾·馬奎斯博士

LAJ：在全球化的背景下，景觀中的人地關(guān)系遭到了破壞，請問您如何看待這一現(xiàn)象？

Marques：出于糧食生產(chǎn)和經(jīng)濟收益等諸多不同原因，人類對賴以生存的土地進行了大量的改造，由此導致了大量破壞。我們正在努力修復這些錯誤，試圖重新尋求與自然更好的平衡，讓自然圍繞在我們的身邊。我們不再單純從經(jīng)濟利益的角度看待自然，而是追求人與自然和諧共生。現(xiàn)如今在許多國家，景觀的重要性相較于過去變得更為凸顯，因為我們正在糾正過去的錯誤，而氣候變化等問題一直在提醒我們?nèi)杂性S多錯誤在等待糾正。因此我們需要風景園林師站在討論和解決這些問題的最前沿。

LAJ：您對于毛利文化的研究頗深，毛利人的傳統(tǒng)價值觀根植于他們生活的自然景觀之中，并形成一套復雜的土著知識體系。您如何看待毛利人與景觀、文化與自然產(chǎn)生的互動？

Marques：毛利文化是一種集體文化。于毛利人而言，家庭單位和整個部落的福祉尤為重要。景觀定義了“他們是誰”，成為他們的身份象征。當參加毛利部落會議時，他們從不會以自己的名字作為開場白，而是先陳述他們所屬的山、河、湖、海，以及他們的部落和家庭，最后才提及名字（圖1）。這樣的身份介紹過程自動建立了令人印象深刻的景觀基礎(chǔ)，明確了他們來自哪里，并解釋了他們與特定土地之間的緊密聯(lián)系。正是這樣的景觀與環(huán)境闡釋了他們是誰，也定義了他們的存在。

1 研討會上毛利人提及的自然景觀The natural landscape mentioned by Māori at the seminar

通過這種聯(lián)系，我們能夠了解到更多關(guān)于如何管理和尊重土地的知識，而這些與西方的理解存在很大差異。毛利人通過代際傳承，將關(guān)于土地的信息以及正確管理土地的理念融入他們的身份認同中，而這些主要通過口口相傳而非文字記錄。這些知識與土地的管理保護有著非常緊密的聯(lián)系，沒有土地，就沒有毛利文化，他們的行為都是受文化驅(qū)動的。對于他們來說，文化、景觀與人是一體的（圖2）。即便是在同一個國家，如果把人們從祖祖輩輩生活的北方土地上遷置到南方，人們會掙扎，因為那不是他們的土地，他們無法在那里找到與北方土地相聯(lián)系的身份。

2 毛利人“從山到海”(ki uta ki tai)的整體景觀方法Māori involve the “whole of landscape” approach known as “from mountains to sea”

隨著全球化時代的到來，我們似乎需要加強個人與國際的聯(lián)系。但我認為是時候意識到地方主義的重要性，并回歸地方和地方特有的事物上。因為我們總是受到周圍環(huán)境信息的影響，我們幾乎都喜歡回到最初，回到特定環(huán)境下人與環(huán)境的原始關(guān)系。

LAJ：如今氣候變化形勢嚴峻，國際關(guān)系瞬息萬變，全球化速度加快，我們的生活方式與往日大不相同，這有時會導致本土文化和經(jīng)驗的衰落。在此背景下，我們應該如何傳承和復興本土知識？

Marques：本土知識是不斷發(fā)展變化的寶貴資源。許多本土傳統(tǒng)和知識由于缺乏書面記錄，面臨丟失的風險。因此，采取適當?shù)谋Ｗo措施對于保存本土文化至關(guān)重要。

我們可以找到許多應用本土知識應對氣候變化和解決入侵物種問題的成功案例。例如，澳大利亞土著居民通過控制火勢來應對入侵物種的蔓延；新西蘭的毛利部落擁有關(guān)于雨洪管理的傳統(tǒng)做法。這些例子顯示了本土知識在應對環(huán)境挑戰(zhàn)方面的重要性。

作為風景園林師，我們有責任和義務運用專業(yè)知識來保護和傳承本土文化，同時應對氣候變化和物種入侵等問題。我們的目標是打造獨具地方特色的風景園林，并為創(chuàng)造一個更美好的未來而不懈努力。通過與本地社區(qū)合作，我們可以更好地了解和尊重他們的傳統(tǒng)和知識，將其融入設(shè)計中，為保護本土文化做出貢獻。

LAJ：您覺得如何在風景園林設(shè)計中融入本土知識？您能否列舉一些具體案例？

Marques：風景園林設(shè)計需要讓人們感受到本地的特點，從而喚起本地的身份認同感。從賓館的窗戶往外看，這些建筑缺乏本地特點，我無法確定這里是在中國、美國、新加坡還是在瑞典。因此，在風景園林設(shè)計中應考慮如何將本土知識應用到具體的環(huán)境中，解決本地的問題或體現(xiàn)出本土特點。例如，深圳的本土知識和解決問題的方法在中國北方未必適用，因為兩者的環(huán)境背景及景觀存在諸多差異。由此，作為風景園林師應與當?shù)亟⒏o密的聯(lián)系，探索更多有趣的、融入本地知識的設(shè)計方案。

LAJ：您如何看待擁有良好人地關(guān)系的景觀能夠使人獲得歸屬感和身份認同感？在風景園林規(guī)劃設(shè)計中如何塑造地方感？

Marques：針對所處環(huán)境運用設(shè)計語言、材料和植物設(shè)計出的解決方案，可以賦予人們一種地方認同感和社區(qū)歸屬感，因為使用者會感到熟悉并認同周圍的環(huán)境，與之產(chǎn)生共鳴。相較于處于完全陌生的環(huán)境，設(shè)計中使用的材料、圖案、傳統(tǒng)或習俗如果并非真正來自本地，人們會感到自身并未真正融入此地，失去認同感或歸屬感。因此，在設(shè)計中融入地方特色，采用本地的材料、圖案和傳統(tǒng)，可以加強使用者與環(huán)境的聯(lián)系，促進社區(qū)歸屬感的形成。這樣的設(shè)計語言和元素能使人們對所處環(huán)境產(chǎn)生情感共鳴，并更加愿意認同并融入社區(qū)。

LAJ：您的研究領(lǐng)域涉及康復景觀，您關(guān)注弱勢群體的心理、身體及社會健康，而在您關(guān)于城市健康街道的研究中有關(guān)注到街道的包容性，這些也與今年IFLA的副主題“不讓任何人掉隊”（Leave No One Behind）十分契合，您如何看待這一主題？

Marques：不同個體對自然和人造環(huán)境的看法不同，這源于人們聯(lián)系事物的方式不同。例如，西方人傾向于穿著運動短褲和跑鞋到濱水區(qū)跑步健身，然而這種模式并不適用于其他文化的人群，他們可能不會覺得去濱水區(qū)和陌生人一起跑步是一件樂事。比如我的祖父母經(jīng)常和孫輩們在家里散步，對他們來說這種鍛煉健身方式遠比去濱水區(qū)跑步更為有效。

研究健康街道的主要目的是讓人們意識到街道環(huán)境的價值，并讓他們愿意主動走進街道。對于行動不便的人來說，街道需要更好的設(shè)計以方便使用，其中坡道和臺階的設(shè)計尤為關(guān)鍵，特別是對于失去行動能力的老年人而言，這樣的設(shè)計可以避免摔倒引發(fā)骨折等問題。因此，我們需要特別注意生活細節(jié)，尤其是街道設(shè)計，確保公共空間的無障礙性。

從文化的角度來看，我們應該思考如何通過設(shè)計創(chuàng)造空間，使人們能夠感受到自己的文化，并在其中感到舒適。在打造社區(qū)地方感的過程中，應當將與當?shù)匚幕嚓P(guān)的符號、零件、材料和元素等融入城市空間的設(shè)計中。通過運用這些文化要素，讓居民們獲得歸屬感，并凝聚在一起，從而反映出他們的文化和身份認同。

LAJ：為了塑造更好的人地關(guān)系，您提及風景園林設(shè)計應該轉(zhuǎn)變一個觀念，即從“設(shè)計師項目”到 “社區(qū)項目”。您認為基于社區(qū)參與的風景園林設(shè)計價值和必要性是什么？

Marques：許多建筑和風景園林項目通常由缺乏與社區(qū)真正有互動的設(shè)計師主導。換句話說，設(shè)計師花費大量時間設(shè)計，這些項目可能由明星建筑師或風景園林師簽署，并成為一個品牌，但并不符合社區(qū)的真實需求。真正成功的項目是那些展示不同設(shè)計方法，將公眾參與的討論融入設(shè)計過程中的項目，而不是設(shè)計師與社區(qū)脫節(jié)，提出并不能滿足社區(qū)期望的解決方案。

在與社區(qū)交流時，人們可能會指出最常使用的區(qū)域，例如需要遮陰的區(qū)域，設(shè)計師應明確保留這些區(qū)域，而不是在那里放置永遠不會被使用的設(shè)施?；蛘呷藗儠岬皆谑褂眠^程中形成的行動軌跡，設(shè)計師應保留這些路線，而不是強迫使用者繞道，否則他們還是會尋找其他捷徑。在與當?shù)厣鐓^(qū)交流時，人們會提供一些設(shè)計師可能不了解的信息，因為他們有使用這些空間的經(jīng)驗，了解哪些區(qū)域應該保留或放棄。

無論是在場地分析還是概念設(shè)計階段，都需要公眾參與。在反復交流的過程中，公眾會給設(shè)計師提供極具意義的反饋。身處項目中，公眾也會理解設(shè)計師的做法，并了解如何使用場地。相較于直接向社區(qū)提供一個設(shè)計方案，也就是我所說的“設(shè)計師項目”，讓公眾參與的“社區(qū)項目”需要付出更多成本，但最終的成果會更合理。

LAJ：在您的參與式風景園林設(shè)計項目中，學生在參與這個過程中給您留下了什么印象?為了讓學生更加重視景觀中的人地關(guān)系，我們應該更加關(guān)注風景園林教育的哪些方面？

Marques：學生初步嘗試這種工作模式時，常常會感到不適，這主要源于他們對與陌生人交流的恐懼或不適應。因此，當我一開始鼓勵他們改變常規(guī)，以新的方式開展項目，與不同群體和年齡段的人進行交流時，他們常常會抗拒。然而，一旦他們真正投入其中，便能看到這種方式帶來的積極變化。

以我在2023年3月初發(fā)起的一個學生參與的設(shè)計項目為例，我和學生們在毛利部落中待了整整一周。起初，他們并不愿意與當?shù)厝私佑|，但當他們開始探索這個地方，與當?shù)厝私徽労螅麄儼l(fā)現(xiàn)了許多無法通過其他途徑獲得的寶貴信息。這種發(fā)現(xiàn)使他們在推進項目時更有靈感和責任感，因為他們意識到，是當?shù)厝烁冻隽藭r間和知識，他們有義務將項目推進并找出最佳解決方案。

雖然這種方法可能比傳統(tǒng)項目耗時更多，但我認為這對學生的成長至關(guān)重要。在實際項目中，我們并不是孤立工作的，需要與其他風景園林師或?qū)I(yè)人士協(xié)作，需要與客戶和社區(qū)進行互動。我相信，隨著學生對這種工作模式的深入接觸和實踐，他們的經(jīng)驗會日益豐富，他們的設(shè)計能力也會得到提升。這無疑是一個積極的體驗和結(jié)果。

LAJ：遺產(chǎn)的保護管理與發(fā)展常常涉及復雜的地方社區(qū)與原住民問題，請問您如何看待地方社區(qū)或原住民和遺產(chǎn)保護與發(fā)展的關(guān)系？

Marques：找到平衡是至關(guān)重要的。根據(jù)我與原住民合作的經(jīng)驗，他們對自身的文化和傳統(tǒng)有著強烈的自豪感，希望其他人能夠?qū)W習并尊重它們。這些文化和傳統(tǒng)極其引人入勝，當人們了解它們時，會產(chǎn)生欣賞和尊重之情。然而，欣賞與為旅游業(yè)開發(fā)之間的界限微妙，過度開發(fā)可能會對這些資源和景觀造成更大的破壞。

如果讓原住民參與這些討論，進行周全的規(guī)劃，我們就可能在文化交流和自然資源保護之間找到一個平衡，達成所有參與方都滿意的結(jié)果。相關(guān)政府部門和專業(yè)委員會也有責任保護這些資源。他們需要制定有效的管理計劃，防止資源被過度使用。在新西蘭，許多事情都是讓利益相關(guān)者參與討論并確保計劃得以合理實施，從而避免資源過度使用。這凸顯了管理和政策制定的重要性。

LAJ：作為IFLA的主席，您主要倡導和推動的工作領(lǐng)域是什么？在任期內(nèi)您可能會考慮什么？您認為IFLA近期的優(yōu)先事項是什么？

Marques：作為唯一代表注冊風景園林師的非政府組織，IFLA有責任讓風景園林師的聲音在全球范圍內(nèi)被聽見，并發(fā)展為一個值得信賴的合作伙伴。我認為，一個優(yōu)先事項是IFLA的管理團隊需要強化與聯(lián)合國及其附屬機構(gòu)、聯(lián)合國教科文組織、國際古跡遺址理事會、人類住區(qū)規(guī)劃署、世界自然保護聯(lián)盟、聯(lián)合國糧食及農(nóng)業(yè)組織、國際城市健康學會、世界衛(wèi)生組織、國際建筑師協(xié)會以及國際城市與區(qū)域規(guī)劃師學會等組織的交流和合作。我們需要明確：誰是我們的合作伙伴？我們應與誰進行對話？我們?nèi)绾未_保他們理解風景園林的重要性？

另外，我們需要對IFLA的成員提供全面支持。IFLA現(xiàn)有78個國家和地區(qū)的成員協(xié)會和超過50 000名成員，預計全球約有100萬名風景園林師。大多數(shù)成員反映，提升風景園林師這一職業(yè)在當?shù)卣蜋C構(gòu)中的知名度和認可度是一個核心問題。因此，我們正在努力探索如何在地方語境下支持我們的成員，使他們能在當?shù)卣嬲┱褂绊懥Α?/p>

這基本上涉及兩個相互對立但同樣重要的層面：一是在國際層面上與國際組織、機構(gòu)的合作，二是在地方層面上對成員的支持。

LAJ：您認為IFLA是如何在全球范圍內(nèi)促進風景園林師教育？

Marques：IFLA作為全球最早確立風景園林教育標準的非政府組織之一，其地位及任務對于風景園林學科的飛速發(fā)展尤為重要。我們必須致力于創(chuàng)新，以適應時代的變遷。我們的教育委員會代表涵蓋全球各主要地區(qū)，致力于建設(shè)各地區(qū)的教育組織。歐洲有風景園林學校理事會，北美有教育工作者委員會，中國的教育項目可能是世界上最大的，我們正在努力與中國風景園林學會建立更緊密的聯(lián)系，推進風景園林師教育。

通過吸納具有共同理念的人參與學科討論，我們能夠了解關(guān)注的主要趨勢，從而為全球任何一所大學提供有關(guān)風景園林專業(yè)發(fā)展方向的指導。

當前，如何將技術(shù)，特別是人工智能，融入我們的課程，成為一項重要議題。人工智能的最新發(fā)展將對我們未來的教學方式產(chǎn)生深遠影響，甚至可能改變風景園林學科或職業(yè)形態(tài)。盡管如此，學科的核心內(nèi)容如生態(tài)重要性和人文重要性等將保持穩(wěn)定。因此，風景園林教育的未來仍有許多問題需要我們?nèi)ソ鉀Q和探討。

LAJ：人工智能近期發(fā)展顯著，特別是ChatGPT的發(fā)布對各行各業(yè)都有很大的影響。您認為人工智能對風景園林將產(chǎn)生什么影響?

Marques：人工智能作為一個新興的領(lǐng)域，現(xiàn)在討論其具體影響尚屬過早。然而，我們可以確定的是，它將改變我們的工作方式。回顧幾十年前，當?shù)乩硇畔⑾到y(tǒng)（GIS）初露頭角時，人們曾惶恐不安，以為它會取代風景園林師和規(guī)劃師，但事實并非如此。同樣，人工智能并不能替代風景園林師，因為它無法理解和體驗空間。比如，如果你讓一個人工智能系統(tǒng)，如ChatGPT，來描述其對某個公園的感覺，它將無法提供具體的空間體驗感。這是人工智能的局限，僅有人類才能將行為和體驗整合進設(shè)計中。

盡管如此，人工智能正逐漸成為我們的重要工具，它可以幫助我們進行頭腦風暴、可視化概念，并在項目過程中適應它，這可能會優(yōu)化設(shè)計結(jié)果。因為它能夠快速地提供一套場景，簡化一些傳統(tǒng)上需要很長時間才能完成的工作。

新事物的出現(xiàn)總會引發(fā)人們的緊張和不安，長期影響尚無人能知曉，但這是我們前進過程中的一個環(huán)節(jié)。就像我們曾經(jīng)適應了CAD、GIS等新技術(shù)一樣，我們也會適應和接納人工智能的出現(xiàn)。

LAJ：風景園林師的就業(yè)情況因國家而異。10年前，風景園林師在中國是一個非常熱門的職業(yè)選擇，但由于社會經(jīng)濟問題，近年來這個趨勢已經(jīng)逐漸放緩，請問您如何看待這個問題?

Marques：風景園林師的需求和地位因地域和國家而有所不同。在IFLA的全球視野中，風景園林師的需求非常旺盛，我們難以找到足夠多的畢業(yè)生來滿足這個需求。顯然，風景園林師的角色非常符合21世紀的課題，如果你理解了城市環(huán)境和綠化對人類健康和福祉以及應對未來氣候變化的重要性，你就會意識到風景園林師的工作極其重要。

然而，我們的行業(yè)仍被一些陳舊的觀念所束縛，如源于18世紀的風景園林被視為花園和園藝設(shè)計的概念，我們需要改變這種觀念。我經(jīng)常告訴學生，如果你在專業(yè)生涯中花2%的時間設(shè)計花園，這已經(jīng)算是很多了，因為這是許多人都能做的事情?，F(xiàn)在，仍然有人把我們誤解為只是與花園打交道的職業(yè)，但是當人們真正理解風景園林師的工作范圍和潛力時，他們會被其深度和廣度所震撼。隨著城市的持續(xù)發(fā)展，我們需要以可持續(xù)的方式應對這種增長，為人們提供更好的生活質(zhì)量。

在中國，風景園林師的職業(yè)地位可能不如10年前那么受歡迎，我不確定它是否會重新成為一種迫切需要的職業(yè)。然而，我們作為從業(yè)者需要展現(xiàn)出更大的積極性。與通常充滿自信的建筑師相比，風景園林師有時會顯得過于內(nèi)斂。我們需要更加積極和自信，去展示我們的工作。這需要更多像你一樣在教育領(lǐng)域投身多年的人，不僅在大學里，也在社區(qū)和政府機構(gòu)里提高人們對我們工作的認識。在政府層面上產(chǎn)生影響并推動改變是至關(guān)重要的，這樣高層次的改變就會逐漸影響到基層。因此，如果我們更加重視風景園林教育，就可以吸引更多新鮮血液加入這個行業(yè)，同時也應嘗試影響更高層次的決策者和政府機構(gòu)，因為他們真正的有權(quán)力推動變革。

LAJ：今天的風景園林師要處理復雜且現(xiàn)實的問題，比如氣候變化。我們也需要更多的技能。您認為我們與城市規(guī)劃師的關(guān)系如何？

Marques：我們需要與規(guī)劃師緊密合作，因為我們正在嘗試實現(xiàn)一些重要的變革。規(guī)劃師在努力理解系統(tǒng)的復雜性，特別是在經(jīng)濟層面，同時也牢牢掌握立法、政策制定以及發(fā)展風景園林的重要性。作為風景園林師，我們能夠讓規(guī)劃師理解生態(tài)和自然系統(tǒng)。通過與規(guī)劃師的合作，我們可以從他們身上學到很多東西，例如在立法和政策制定方面變得更加積極。

城市環(huán)境的未來在很大程度上取決于這種合作，甚至超過與建筑師的合作。規(guī)劃師和風景園林師知道如何組織一個城市，并在此基礎(chǔ)上考慮建筑層面的問題。我們應該以這種目標模式為導向，而不是讓建筑師先設(shè)計建筑，然后將剩下的一切交給風景園林師處理。

新西蘭與中國在規(guī)劃方式上存在不同。新西蘭的規(guī)劃者主要關(guān)注決策發(fā)展而不是專業(yè)規(guī)劃。在新西蘭，大部分的空間規(guī)劃都是由風景園林師或建筑師進行。規(guī)劃者的角色是確保政策制定、經(jīng)濟發(fā)展、基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施等各類問題得到解決。盡管我們需要風景園林師和規(guī)劃師在最高水平上進行緊密合作，但與這個現(xiàn)實還有一段距離。我們只能期盼未來會有所改變，并不斷努力達成更加緊密的協(xié)作。

LAJ：您對即將進入風景園林設(shè)計行業(yè)的從業(yè)者或即將進入該領(lǐng)域?qū)W習的學生有什么建議？我們在工作和學習中最不應該失去的品質(zhì)是什么？

Marques：保持好奇心并對外部世界懷有熱情是至關(guān)重要的。在進入風景園林行業(yè)前，你需要積累大量關(guān)于自然、生態(tài)和系統(tǒng)的專業(yè)知識和相關(guān)背景信息。這一寶貴的知識體系將確保你在全球任何地方都能從容地應對設(shè)計工作。

我們不僅是與自然相處，我們更是為人們做設(shè)計，與他們緊密合作。因此，風景園林設(shè)計不僅要求學生掌握自然相關(guān)的知識，還要求學生了解當?shù)氐纳鐣尘昂臀幕尘?、熟悉人們的生活環(huán)境。所以，我強烈鼓勵學生保持好奇，對學習充滿渴望，去探索不同的環(huán)境，去理解不同的人群，體驗不同的大學。世界無疆界，學生們可以走向任何地方，去學習新的文化，掌握新的語言，和研究前沿的風景園林設(shè)計方法。這種多元的經(jīng)驗將豐富他們的視野，幫助他們成為更優(yōu)秀的風景園林師。

LAJ：非常感謝您接受本次采訪！

Marques：不客氣。我很榮幸。

圖片來源(Sources of Figures)：

訪談人物圖片由深圳大學建筑與城市規(guī)劃學院提供；圖1、2由馬奎斯主席提供。

（編輯 / 李清清）

采訪者簡介：

張柔然 / 男 / 博士 / 深圳大學建筑與城市規(guī)劃學院副教授、碩士生導師 / 劍橋大學麥克唐納考古研究所副研究員 / 國際古跡遺址理事會國際文化旅游科學委員會副主席 / 中國風景園林學會青年工作委員會副主任委員 / 研究方向為文化與自然遺產(chǎn)規(guī)劃與管理、風景園林規(guī)劃與設(shè)計、國家公園、文化旅游

譯者簡介：

陳欣 / 女 / 深圳大學建筑與城市規(guī)劃學院在讀碩士研究生 /研究方向為風景園林與生態(tài)環(huán)境規(guī)劃設(shè)計

胡嘉鴻 / 女 / 深圳大學建筑與城市規(guī)劃學院在讀碩士研究生 /研究方向為風景園林與生態(tài)環(huán)境規(guī)劃設(shè)計

校者簡介：

王長宏 / 男 / 碩士 / 北京北林地景園林規(guī)劃設(shè)計院有限責任公司設(shè)計五院二所所長 / 研究方向為風景園林規(guī)劃設(shè)計與城市更新

ZHANG R R.The Human-Land Relationship in the Landscape: Interview with Doctor Bruno Marques, President of the International Federation of Landscape Architects[J].Landscape Architecture, 2023, 30(12): 12-21.

The Human-Land Relationship in the Landscape: Interview with Doctor Bruno Marques, President of the International Federation of Landscape Architects

Interviewer: ZHANG Rouran Translators: CHEN Xin, HU Jiahong Proofreader: WANG Changhong

Interviewee:

（NZ）Bruno Marques, Ph.D., is president of the International Federation of Landscape Architects(IFLA), the associate dean of the Faculty of Architecture and Design Innovation, Victoria University of Wellington, and the founders of the research lab “Therapeutic + Rehabilitative Designed Environments”.His research focuses on Māori tribal culture, therapeutic landscapes,community-based participatory design, and urban healthy streets.

?BeijingLandscape ArchitectureJournal Periodical Office Co., Ltd.Published byLandscape ArchitectureJournal.This is an open access article under the CC BY-NC-ND license.

Dr.Bruno Marques currently serves as president (from September 2022 to present) of the International Federation of Landscape Architects(IFLA), and associate dean of the Faculty of Architecture and Design Innovation, Victoria University of Wellington.His research focuses on community health and well-being, Māori tribes,therapeutic landscape, and community-based participatory landscape design approaches and practices.He is also one of the founders of the research lab “Therapeutic + Rehabilitative Designed Environments/Taiao + Tumahu” (TRDE).This multi-disciplinary and multi-institutional research lab is dedicated to developing evidencebased research to demonstrate how architecture,landscape and technology can support relevant healthcare practices.In April 2023, President Marques was invited to participate in the 13th Annual Meeting of the Chinese Society of Landscape Architecture, as well as the“International Forum on the Frontiers of Landscape Architecture and the Youth Professional Forum on the Protection of Landscape Heritage on 4.18 International Day for Monuments and Sites” hosted by the Youth Working Committee of the Chinese Society of Landscape Architecture.Landscape Architecture Journal Periodical Office had the honor to interview President Marques, discussing in depth the human-land relationship in landscape.

LAJ:Landscape ArchitectureJournal Marques: Dr.Bruno Marques

LAJ: In the context of globalization, how do you see the disruption of the human-land relationship in landscape?

Marques: I think we have caused a lot of damage to our land.We have heavily modified it for many different reasons, mainly for food production and economic gain.And I find that we are trying to fix those mistakes, turn back to find a much better balance with nature and have nature around us, we are not solely looking at nature from an economic gain perspective, but rather pursuing a harmony with it.In many countries, landscape architecture is really becoming much more important than in the past, we’re trying to address the mistakes of the past.The issue of climate change, for example, just keeps us reminding that we need to address more mistakes.And I think we need landscape architects to be really at the forefront of those discussions and solutions.

LAJ: You understand Māori culture very well.Māori traditional values are rooted in the natural landscape they inhabit, giving birth to a complex system of indigenous knowledge.How do you see the interaction between Māori people and landscape, and Māori nature and culture?

Marques: Māori culture is a collective culture.For them, the well-being of family unit and overall tribe is very important.The landscape is what defines “who they are” and becomes their identity card.When you go into a meeting with Māori tribe, they would never introduce themselves with their names, they don’t start with that.Instead, they start by identifying the mountains,rivers, lakes, and seas that belong to them, along with their tribe and family.Actually, the given name is the last thing they tell you (Fig.1).It automatically establishes a very strong grounding on the landscape, and it also gives you the geolocation where they come from.It explains the very strong connection they have with a particular piece of land.That’s the environment defines “who they are” and defines their existence.

Through this connection, we learn much more about how to manage and respect the land,which is very different from the western understanding.Māori people have passed on knowledge through the generations, and integrate information about land, as well as the concept of proper land stewardship, into their identity.However, this knowledge about land and identity is mainly transmitted orally rather than in written records.This knowledge intricately linked with land management and protection.If there’s no land,there is no Māori culture.I think their behaviors are culturally driven.For them, culture, landscape and people are intertwined (Fig.2).Even within the same country, if people are moved from the northern lands where their ancestors lived and settled in the south, they will struggle because it’s not their land, and they cannot find the identity connected to the northern land.

I think it’s interesting that it relates to your first question.With the advent of globalization, it seems like we need to strengthen individual and international connections.However, I think it’s time to realize the importance of regionalism and return to the region as well as what is specific to the place.Because we are just always influenced by the environment information around us, we almost like to go back to the beginning, and the primordial existence of human-environment relationship in a certain environment.

1 The natural landscape mentioned by Māori at the seminar

LAJ: Today, climate change is affecting the whole world, international relations are changing rapidly, globalization is accelerating,and our lifestyle is different from the past,which sometimes lead to the decline of local culture and experience.In view of this, how should we restore or revive our local culture and knowledge?

Marques: Local knowledge is a valuable resource that is constantly evolving and changing,and landscape architects have a responsibility to ensure its inheritance and protection from generation to generation.Numerous local traditions and forms of knowledge face the risk of disappearing due to a lack of written documentation.Therefore, the implementation of appropriate protective measures is imperative in order to preserving these local cultures.

In both Australia and New Zealand, we come across numerous successful instances where indigenous knowledge has been utilized to address issues related to climate change and the mitigation of invasive species.For instance, in Australia,Indigenous inhabitants manage the proliferation of invasive species by employing controlled burning practices.Similarly, in New Zealand, Māori tribes have maintained traditional techniques for managing rainfall and flood occurrences.These instances underscore the vital role of indigenous knowledge in effectively addressing environmental challenges.

2 Māori involve the “whole of landscape” approach known as “from mountains to sea”

As landscape architects, we shoulder the responsibility and obligation of applying our professional expertise to safeguard and perpetuate indigenous cultures, while simultaneously tackling challenges such as climate change and invasive species.Our objective is to design landscapes that are distinctly representative of their local context and relentlessly strive towards a more promising future.Through collaboration with local communities, we gain a deeper appreciation for and understanding of their customs and wisdom,which we then integrate into our designs, thus making a contribution to the preservation of indigenous cultures.

LAJ: How do you think we can incorporate indigenous knowledge into landscape design? Could you provide some specific examples?

Marques: Landscape architecture design should evoke a sense of local identity, enabling people to connect with the unique characteristics of the region.When looking out of the window of the hotel, these buildings lack distinct local features and could exist anywhere in the world.Just looking at the buildings, it’s difficult to discern whether we are in China, the United States, Singapore, or Sweden.Hence, in landscape architecture design,it’s important to consider how to apply indigenous knowledge to address specific local issues or showcase local traits.For instance, the indigenous knowledge and problem-solving strategies in Shenzhen might not be suitable for use in northern China, as the environmental context and landscape are different.Therefore, as landscape architects, it’s essential to establish closer connections with the local community, exploring more interesting solutions that integrate local knowledge, and effectively showcase the region’s distinctiveness.

LAJ: What do you think that landscape with a strong human-land relationship can foster a sense of belonging and identity? And how can a sense of place be shaped in landscape planning and design?

Marques: By creating solutions tailored to the specific context we are in and employing design language, materials, and vegetation, a sense of local identity and community belonging can be given to people.They will feel familiar with it and identify with the surrounding environment.Instead, being in a totally foreign environment where they just feel that the materials, patterns, traditions, or customs are not really from this specific area, and they may feel that they don’t really belong here and lose their sense of identity or belonging.Thus,incorporating local characteristics in design, using local materials, patterns, and traditions, can strengthen the bond between users and surroundings, fostering a sense of community belonging.This design language and elements generate an emotional resonance with the environment, encouraging people to identify with and integrate into the community.

LAJ: Your research area relates to therapeutic landscape, focusing on the mental, physical and social well-being of disadvantaged individuals.In your research on urban healthy streets, you’ve noted the inclusivity of streets.These align well with this year’s IFLA sub-theme, “Leave No One Behind”.So what do you think about this theme?

Marques: Different types of people view the natural and built environment differently, because they all connect to things differently.For instance,from a western perspective, people put on their gym shorts and running shoes, and go to the waterfront to have a run for fitness.However, the pattern does not apply to other cultures, which don’t feel that you should go for a run in the waterfront with strangers.As an example, my grandparents and grandchildren often take walks in the family room, considering it more crucial for exercise and fitness than just running along the waterfront by themselves.

I think the primary goal of studying health streets is to make people realize the value of street environments and willingly engage with them.Those who probably have lower mobility feel that the streets need to be better designed to ensure universal access.The issues like ramps and stairs tend to be problematic for people, especially for elderly individuals with reduced lower body strength, as such designs can prevent issues like falls and fractures.Therefore, paying close attention to everyday details, especially in street design, is essential to ensure the accessibility of public spaces.

From a cultural perspective, we should contemplate how design can create spaces where people can feel that their own cultures are represented and feel comfortable within it.While crafting a sense of community and place,incorporating symbols, components, materials, and elements from the local culture into urban space design is crucial.By employing these cultural elements, we can instill a sense of belonging and unity among residents, reflecting their culture and identity.

LAJ: In order to shape a better humanland relationship in landscape, you mentioned that landscape design should shift from a“designer project” to a “community project”.What do you think are the values and necessities of community-based participatory landscape design?

Marques: I think there are many architecture and landscape architecture projects which are often designed by someone who probably lack genuine interaction with the community.In other words,designers spend significant time crafting designs that might be signed by star architects or star landscape architects and become a brand, but they may not align with the actual needs of the community.I think the successful projects are those that really showcase different design approaches, involve people in those discussions and incorporate their input into the design process,rather than designers becoming disconnected from people and coming up with a solution that might not be what they’re looking for.

During interactions with the community,people may point out commonly used areas, such as spots requiring shade.Designers should explicitly preserve these areas instead of placing facilities there that will never be used.Alternatively,people might mention linear paths formed through use.Designers should retain these pathways instead of forcing users to take detours, as they will ultimately seek other shortcuts.When engaging with the local community, people will provide information that designers might not be aware of,because they have the experience of using these spaces and understand which areas should be retained or relinquished.

Community involvement is essential, whether during site analysis or conceptual design stages.Throughout this iterative process of communication, they will provide us with very meaningful feedback.Being immersed in the project, they’ll understand why we are doing it and how they can use it.In contrast to presenting a design proposal directly to the community, what I refer to as a “designer’s project,” a “community project” that involves public participation incurs higher costs but ultimately yields more sensible outcomes.

LAJ: In your community-based participatory landscape design projects, what impressions have students left on you throughout their involvement? To encourage students to value the relationship between human and land in landscape, what aspects of landscape architecture education should we pay more attention to?

Marques: When students first attempt this approach, they often feel discomfort, because they feel fearful and discomfort to talk to strangers.So initially, when I tell them to break from the norm,to engage in projects in new ways, and to talk to different groups and age ranges, they often resist.But once they do it, they witness the positive transformations this approach brings.

Taking an example from a student-involved design project I initiated in early March this year, I took the students to stay with the Māori tribe for about a whole week.Initially, they actually didn’t enjoy going to engage with them.But as they went around to explore the area and interacted with the local people, they realized that they got so much valuable information that they couldn’t just obtain from any other sources.This discovery fueled their inspiration and sense of responsibility in advancing the project because they realized the locals had invested time and knowledge, and they felt obligated to drive the project forward and find the best solutions.

Although it definitely takes more time than the traditional projects, I think it’s crucial for students’ growth.Because as we go into practice,we won’t work alone by ourselves, we’ll collaborate with other landscape architects or professionals, we need to interact with clients and communities.With deepening exposure and practice in this approach, I believe that students’ experiences will become more enriching, and their design abilities will be enhanced.And I think it’s a positive experience and outcome.

LAJ: The conservation, management and development of heritage often involve complex issues of local communities and indigenous people.What do you think about the relationship between local communities or indigenous people and heritage conservation and development?

Marques: We need to strike a balance.From my experience working with indigenous people,they are very proud of their culture and traditions and want others to learn about and respect them.The culture and traditional extremely fascinating,when people gain knowledge about these cultures,they learn to appreciate and respect them.However, there’s a fine line between appreciation and mass tourism, which can exploit those resources and landscapes, potentially causing even more damage.

If we involve indigenous communities in these discussions and develop reasonable plans to balance exposure to their culture and protection of natural resources, we can probably find an outcome that satisfies both parties.It’s also the responsibility of the local councils and original agencies to ensure that these resources are protected and preserved.They need to implement effective management plans to prevent the overuse of resources and the influx of large numbers of visitors to these places.In New Zealand, many of these discussions occur directly with the tribes.It involves bringing the stakeholders on board for these discussions and ensure plans are in place to prevent overused.It largely revolves around effective management and policy creation.

LAJ: What are the main areas of work that you advocate and promote as president of IFLA? What might you consider during your tenure？And what do you see as the priorities of IFLA in the near future?

Marques: As the only non-governmental organization representing enrolled landscape architects, IFLA has a responsibility to ensure our voice is heard globally and to evolve into a reliable collaborative partner.I think one of the priorities is that IFLA’s management team need to strengthen communication and collaboration with international organizations, including the United Nations (UN) and its sub-agencies, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), the International Council on Monuments and Sites (ICOMOS), the UN-Habitat, the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN), the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations(FAO), the International Society for Urban Health(ISUH), the World Health Organization (WHO),the International Union of Architects (UIA), the International Society of City and Regional Planners(ISOCARP), among others.We need clarity: who are our partners? Who should we be talking to?And how can we make sure that they understand the importance of landscape architecture?

The other aspect is to provide support to IFLA’s members.IFLA has 78 national and regional member associations and over 50,000 members.It is anticipated there are approximately a million landscape architects worldwide.One of the key issues that many members tell IFLA is to enhance the visibility and recognition of the landscape architects within local governments and agencies.Therefore, we are actively exploring how IFLA can support our members locally, so that they can actually make a difference locally.This essentially involves two contrasting yet equally crucial levels: international collaboration with organizations and institutions, and local-level support for members.

LAJ: How do you think that IFLA is promoting landscape architect education globally?

Marques: IFLA as the world’s one of the earliest establishments of landscape architecture education standard of nongovernmental organizations (NGOs), its status and the task to cope with the rapid development of landscape architecture discipline is particularly important.We must be committed to innovation, so as to adapt to the changes of The Times.Our Education Committee represents various major regions around the world and is dedicated to building educational networks in different areas.We have the European Council of Landscape Architecture Schools in Europe (ECLAS), the Council of Educators of Landscape Architecture in North America (CELA), and the recently created American Council for Landscape Architecture Schools in the United States.We are also present in China, which likely has the large number of education programs in the world, and we’re striving to forge stronger ties with Chinese Society of Landscape Architecture (CHSLA) and the Education Committee to promote the landscape architect education.

By bring like-minded people into these discussions, we can stay abreast of the trends we should be focusing on.As such, we can provide guidance to any university in the world regarding what should be taught in Landscape Architects programs.

One of the key issues at present is how to integrate technology, especially AI into our curriculum.AI will largely determine our future teaching methods and may even change the shape of the landscape architecture discipline or profession.However, the core business will remain the same in terms of ecological importance, human importance, and so on.There are issues that the discipline will still need to address in the education of future landscape architects.

LAJ: The significant development of AI,particularly the release of ChatGPT, has had a significant impact on various industries.What do you think of the impact of AI on landscape architecture?

Marques: It’s too early to see the impact, as this is quite a new development.But it will change the way we do things.I remember some decades ago, when GIS became popular, people had moments of panic, thinking it was going to replace all landscape architects and planners.But it didn’t.AI will not be replaced us as designers because AI cannot comprehend the experience of space.If you were to ask an AI like ChatGPT how it feels about a certain park, it wouldn’t be able to describe the experience.Such experiences can’t be effectively conveyed by artificial intelligence; that’s the limitation.However, we can incorporate the experiential and behavioral aspects into our designs.

Meanwhile, AI is becoming an important tool that we can use for brainstorming ideas, visualizing concepts, and adapting it into project development,which might enhance the design outcomes.Because it is able to quickly provide a set of scenarios, and simplify processes that usually take a long time.

It’s just a matter of adjusting.People often panic when there is change, because they are used to doing things a certain way and then suddenly something new is introduced.No one knows the long-term impact of it yet.But I think it’s very positive.Just like everything else we do, such as CAD and GIS, and everything else, we will become accustomed to this as well.

LAJ: The employment of landscape architects varies from country to country.Landscape architect was a very popular career choice in China 10 years ago, but the trend has been gradually declining in recent years due to social and economic issues.What do you think of this?

Marques: As you said, it varies from country to country.In the global field of vision of IFLA,landscape architects are in high demand.There aren’t enough graduates out there; we can’t find them.Undoubtedly, the role of a landscape architect aligns well with 21st-century concerns.If you grasp the significance of urban environments,the promotion of human health and well-being through green spaces, and the crucial response to impending climate change, you’ll recognize the profound importance of the landscape architect’s role.

At the same time, we still carry baggage from the past, being associated with the idea of gardens and gardening, which is an 18th-century interpretation of Landscape Architecture.We need to move away from that.I generally tell my students that if they’re going to spend 2% of their professional time designing gardens, that’s going to be quite a lot because so many people can do that.There are still some very strong stereotypes that we are a profession dealing with gardens.But once the general public comprehends the scope and potential of our profession, they are often amazed by its depth and breadth.As our cities continue to grow, there will still be a need for us to address that growth and make cities more sustainable, providing a better living environment for people.

While it might not be as popular in China as it was 10 years ago, I’m not sure whether it will become an urgent need of professional again.However, we need to be a little more aggressive.Comparatively, landscape architects are often very modest.We sometimes have an inferiority complex when compared to architects, who are typically very assertive.We need to be just as assertive, if not more so, and show the world what we do.This necessitates the involvement of more individuals,akin to your years of commitment in the education sector, to enhance awareness about the work we engage in.This awareness-building effort spans not only within academic institutions but also extends into local communities and governmental bodies.Exerting influence at the governmental level and driving transformative measures is of paramount importance, as such top-down alterations will gradually percolate to the grassroots.Therefore, by according greater emphasis to landscape architecture education, we can not only attract a fresh influx of talent into the field but also endeavor to sway higher echelon decision-makers and governmental entities, given their authority to effect substantial change.

LAJ: Today, landscape architects need to deal with more complex and realistic problems, such as climate change, which entails the mastery of more skills.What do you think about the relationship between landscape architects and urban planners?

Marques: We need to collaborate closely with urban planners as we are endeavoring to enact significant reforms.Urban planners are engaged in comprehending the intricacies of systems,particularly on economic levels, while also holding a firm grasp of legislation, policy formulation, and the significance of landscape architectural development.As landscape architects, we bring an understanding of ecological and natural systems to the table.Through collaboration with urban planners, we have opportunity to learn from them,such as becoming more proactive in legislative and policy-making endeavors.

The future of urban environments largely hinges upon this collaboration, even surpassing that with architects.Planners and landscape architects understand how to organize a city and subsequently address architectural concerns.We should be guided by this goal-oriented approach,rather than having architects design buildings first and then entrusting landscape architects with everything else.

What distinguishes New Zealand from China is that New Zealand planners are primarily concerned with policy development, rather than being heavily involved in spatial planning.Much of the spatial planning is conducted through landscape architecture or architecture.We encounter a distinct scenario where planning as a profession isn’t as mature, and the spatial planning of cities is overseen by architects and landscape architects.Planners are present to ensure that policy-making, economics, and other facets such as infrastructure are duly addressed.While we require landscape architects and urban planners to collaborate closely at the highest level, there is still a gap between this aspiration and reality.We can only hope for future changes and consistently strive to achieve a more seamless cooperation.

LAJ: Do you have any advice for students who are about to enter the landscape design industry or to study in this field? And what is the most important quality that we should not lose in work or study?

Marques: Embrace your curiosity for the world beyond.Our profession equips you with the ability to comprehend the workings of nature,ecology, systems, and layers of information.I believe this skill set is invaluable and enables you to operate worldwide.

Simultaneously, our engagement isn’t confined to nature alone; it extends to crafting environments for people’s closer interaction with it.This transcends nature’s scope, as students must grasp the local context and the individuals who inhabit these spaces.Thus, I strongly urge you to nurture your curiosity, maintain a thirst for learning, explore diverse environments,comprehend various cultures, and embrace the diversity of university experiences.

The globe is your canvas.Students can venture anywhere their hearts desire.They can immerse themselves in novel cultures, languages,and varied methods of practicing landscape architecture.This will undeniably enrich their experiences and refine their skills as landscape architects.

LAJ: Thank you so much for this interview!

Dr Marques: You’re welcome.My pleasure.

Sources of Figures:

Portrait of President Marques is provided by School of Architecture and Urban Planning, Shenzhen University；Fig.1-2 are provided by President Marques.