主持：洪人杰，Kulthida Songkittipakdee / Host: Jenchieh Hung, Kulthida Songkittipakdee

對談：Amata Luphaiboon，Twitee Vajrabhaya Teparkum 泰國建筑系事務所主持建筑師/ Interview: Amata Luphaiboon，Twitee Vajrabhaya Teparkum; Principal Architect of Department of ARCHITECTURE, Thailand

記錄：中泰建筑研究室/ Transcript: Chinese-Thai Research Studio

洪：我最早得知Department of ARCHITECTURE是十年前在雜志上看到普吉島莎拉度假酒店（Sala Phuket Resort），而后該項目獲得泰國暹羅建筑師協(xié)會（Association of Siamese Architects, ASA）獎項。接著近十年時間您不將事務所定位在酒店項目上，相反完成一系列不同類型作品，如SunOne集團總部（SunOne）、邦盛海灘多功能亭（The Flow Pavilion）、The Commons商場（The Commons）、泰國創(chuàng)意與設計中心（Thailand Creative and Design Center），因此我更感興趣的是當事務所被業(yè)主定位成酒店專家時，您是如何成功轉(zhuǎn)型的（圖1）？

Hung: I firstly knew the Department of ARCHITECTURE from the Sala Phuket Resort in a magazine ten years ago, and the project won an award of the Association of Siamese Architects(ASA). Ten years later, you do not position the firm on the hotel project. Instead, you have completed a series of different types of works, such as SunOne, The Flow Pavilion, The Commons, Thailand Creative and Design Center, so l am more interested in the office transition.How did you successfully transform your position which do not act as a hotel expert by the client expectation (Picture 1)?

Amata：這個話題大概要回到二十多年前，我與合伙人Twitee一起于Metric事務所任職，那個時候我們作為主持建筑師完成蘇梅島六善酒店（Six Senses Samui Resort），該項目讓我們獲得第一個ASA建筑金獎，業(yè)主也開始將我們定位為酒店設計專家。但是，身為建筑師的我們不想將自己放進盒子中，我們想突破束縛，想嘗試相異類型項目，想勇于挑戰(zhàn)并創(chuàng)新，因此我們成立Department of ARCHITECTURE事務所，并在十五年中累積多元的經(jīng)驗。

Amata: More than 20 years ago, I worked with my partner Twitee at Metric.At that time, we completed Six Senses Samui Resort as the project architect. This project gave us the first ASA Gold Award, and the client also started positioning us as a hotel design expert. However, as an architect, we don't want to put ourselves in the box. We want to break through it, try different types of projects, and want to be challenged and innovated. So we set up the Department of ARCHITECTURE and accumulated in fifteen yearswith diverse experience.

Kulthida：很多事務所為了運營而接商業(yè)項目，之后卻遭遇定型的窘境，只能持續(xù)做商業(yè)項目。當您們完成普吉島莎拉度假酒店后，您是如何在被定型后又成功轉(zhuǎn)型做其他項目？

Kulthida: Many firms commit the commercial projects in order to running their operation,but then they encounter a stereotyped situation, and can only continue to do the commercial projects. After you completed Sala Phuket Resort, how did you successfully transform and do other projects later?

Amata：我想先從“人員”的角度來說──最早我們只有四個人，幾年后以等比增加的速度，我們有意圖地讓人數(shù)與項目都控制在一個有機成長的狀態(tài)，直到現(xiàn)在較具規(guī)模的35人；事實上我們無法控制項目的擴張，但卻可以控制公司的人數(shù)，當我們用最精簡的人員來完成項目，便逐漸累積經(jīng)驗與能力，進而有更大的信心可以“挑選”項目。再來從“時間”的角度來說──當我們這幾年沒有承接酒店項目時，我們有更多心力投注在室內(nèi)、辦公、餐廳和商業(yè)項目上（圖2），這幾年我們更渴望承接從建筑到室內(nèi)的項目，完整并串連從業(yè)主、運營、設計到施工整個系統(tǒng)。最后從“運氣”的角度來說──當我們拒絕項目時，我們更積極付出也更熱情投入在每個項目上，很幸運地這幾年我們獲得許多國內(nèi)外等獎項，尤其是泰國ASA獎項，肯定我們在許多項目的實踐與成就。

Amata: I want to start with the "personnel" point of view - the earliest we had only four people. After afew years, at an increasing rate, we intend to keep the number of people and projects in an organically growing. Thirty-five people in size; in fact, we can't control the expansion of the project, but we can control the number of companies. When we use the most streamlined personnel to complete the project, we gradually accumulate experience and ability, and then have greater confidence to “pick”project. From the perspective of "time" - when we did not undertake hotel projects in the past few years,we have more efforts to work on interior, office, restaurant and commercial projects(Picture 2). In recent years, we are more eager to undertake from architecture to interior. The project is completed and serialized from the client, operation, and design to construction of the entire system. Finally, from the perspective of “l(fā)uck” - when we refused the project, we were more active and enthusiastic about each project. Fortunately, we are lucky to win many international and domestic awards, especially the ASA award, which allows us to prove our ability to do any project.

圖1，普吉島莎拉度假酒店╱Sala Phuket Resort（攝影╱Photo：W Workspace）

圖2，芭堤雅希爾頓酒店╱Hilton Pattaya（攝影╱Photo：W Workspace）

洪：當項目進行時，您是如何說服業(yè)主？當事務所成名后，是否能掌握設計話語權？

Hung: How do you convince the client when the project is going on? After the firm became famous, can you control all the design?

Amata：十五年前我35歲，那時候很年輕，現(xiàn)在我已經(jīng)50歲，所以我當年碰到的業(yè)主都比我老。但是我一直覺得要讓業(yè)主信任并不是這么困難，因為我們總是做到最好，并且保證業(yè)主可以從我們的眼神中知道我們在他們項目上的熱情。當我們碰到業(yè)主很有想法的告訴我們，他想做有想法的商業(yè)和辦公項目時，他的熱情也會影響我們，促使我有創(chuàng)新的勇氣；同時我們會做很多設計研究，以滿足我們不同方案的效果，甚至也會做動畫、手工模型、效果圖等，我們會盡力做到每一個細小的環(huán)節(jié)，讓業(yè)主們都可以清楚了解。因此，業(yè)主就會知道我們是真的很認真的在做項目，同時我們也會與業(yè)主說明中間研究過程，并在匯報中將建筑與室內(nèi)關系做出詳細說明與后續(xù)發(fā)展，業(yè)主就會知道我們了解全部的過程，是一個很完整、很大量的研究結(jié)果，并且具有極大的熱情向他們展示成果（圖3）?，F(xiàn)在，十多年過去了，我也有代表作品，業(yè)主知道我們的設計水平后，更容易與業(yè)主溝通與交流；現(xiàn)在的業(yè)主對我們更了解，我們有更多機會可以展現(xiàn)我們的設計能力。但是，我們希望提供更多的可能性，研究并創(chuàng)新前所未有的設計方案；即便新的東西總是很難被人接受，但是我們會做的更好、更認真投入，讓業(yè)主知道我們對于設計的熱情與勇氣。另外一方面，因為業(yè)主信任我們，所以我們也有更長遠的目標，希望每個項目都比之前項目更推進一些、更具挑戰(zhàn)性一些，這也是事務所進步以及取得業(yè)主信任的原因（圖4）。

Amata: Fifteen years ago I was thirty-five years old, very young at that time, now I am fifty years old, so I had met the client are older than me, but I always think to let client trust us are not so difficult, because we always do our best, and I'm sure the client can know from our eyes our passion on their projects. If I don't have passion in the project, I will not undertake whether it is an office or business project. However, I do not mean that the office or commercial projects are not connected. I mean if the client tells me that he wants to do business or office projects with some ideas, his enthusiasm will also affect us, prompting me to have the courage to innovate. At the same time,we will do a lot of design research, these results are very distinctive, and in order to meet the effect of our different characteristics of the program, we will even do animation, physical model, effective diagram, we try to do any supplemental materials to express the design, so that the clients of different designs can also clearly understand.This way, the client will know we are really serious in doing something, but we not only show the design results, we will also study among process with the vendor, the contractor and interior interface in briefing could elaborate and development. The clients generally know a building direction, and can know that kind of real materials, texture, indoor space, the client will know that we know all the process, is a very full, very large number of research results, and has a great enthusiasm to like their present achievements (Picture 3). Now more than ten years have passed, we also have several representative works, the clients also know our design level, so it is easier to convince the clients. Now the clients know us better, we have more opportunities to show our design ability, but we will pursue to provide more solutions to the clients, to study unprecedented solutions and our innovative design that has never been done before.But new things will always be questioned by the clients, so we still do more and better, more serious investment, let the clients know our passion and courage for design. At the same time, because the clients trust us, we also have a longer term goal, hoping to make each project more advanced and more challenging than the previous projects, which is also the reason for the progress of the firm and the trust of the clients (Picture 4).

圖3，鄢陵建業(yè)花滿地溫泉酒店╱MIST Hot Spring Hotel（攝影╱Photo：W Workspace）

圖4，Little Shelter酒店/ Little Shelter Hotel（攝影/ Photo: W Workspace）

洪：當外國業(yè)主委托您們項目時，是否期待在您們設計里看到泰國性（Thainess）痕跡？

Hung: When foreign clients entrust you with projects, do you expect to see Thai-ness in your designs?

Amata：業(yè)主找上我們多半是看過我們的作品，他們認為我們的作品很巧妙的將地域關系展現(xiàn)在建筑風格上，而這些業(yè)主都會讓我們發(fā)揮個人創(chuàng)意，而非單一風格。在我們設計中場地扮演重要的角色，然而身為泰國建筑師，我們的設計也會自然而然體現(xiàn)“泰國性”痕跡，但并非刻意的。有些項目因為氣候因素、地理條件、歷史人文等因素需要呈現(xiàn)泰國性痕跡，如我們設計的大城Trusoul度假酒店（Trusoul Resort Ayutthaya）；但有些項目的泰國性表達則可以透過材料、構(gòu)筑或自然環(huán)境來呈現(xiàn)，如中國的鄢陵建業(yè)花滿地溫泉酒店（MIST Hot Spring Hotel）、印度尼西亞的巴利島高爾夫度假酒店（Bali Golf Resort）以及約旦的Ayla 海灘會所（Ayla Beach Club）。我們從未刻意的尋求某種設計意圖，僅單純希望讓人可以感受到好的建筑或空間，那就足夠了。

Amata: Most of the clients have seen our works, and they think that our works skillfully show the regional relationship in the architectural style, and the clients will let us play the contemporary architectural style. In our creation, it actually depends more on the site relationship. If the Thai design is not needed, why should we put it in? However, as a Thai architect, my design naturally reflects the traces of Thai nature, but this is not intentional; some projects may need Thai traces, such as our Trusoul Resort Ayutthaya, but the depth of Thai design depends on how much I want to put in, perhaps through the decorative elements expressed by materials, patterns or light, but in any case it is through the study of natural orientation to that trend. On the other hand, we have many overseas projects,such as MIST Hot Spring Hotel in China, Bali Golf Resort in Indonesia, Ayla Beach Club in Jordan and Manila project, we have never had a preconceived design strategy, we do not need to talk loudly about Thai nature, Thai architects, we hope the work can make people feel good, that is enough.

洪：海外業(yè)主是如何發(fā)現(xiàn)Department of ARCHITECTURE？

Hung: How can foreign clients find the Department of ARCHlTECTURE?

Amata：我們有一部分作品發(fā)表于國外互連網(wǎng)上，但我們不知道哪個網(wǎng)站是大眾關注的，或許有些業(yè)主看到ArchDaily、Archtizer，也有部分從Dezeen或谷德設計網(wǎng)…等。當這些海外業(yè)主已經(jīng)知道我們的項目時，如普吉島莎拉度假酒店、芭堤雅希爾頓酒店（Hilton Pattaya）、The Commons商場時，我會給他們看其他類型的作品，讓他們知道我們的實踐類型很多元，沒有任何類型的限制。業(yè)主也會發(fā)現(xiàn)，我們的設計不僅獨特，還具有創(chuàng)新的能力；因為當我們自己都不會抄襲自己的作品時，業(yè)主就會了解我們更不可能抄襲別人作品（圖5）。

Amata: Some of our works have been published via foreign medias, but we don't know which website is popular, maybe some clients see ArchDaily, Archtizer, and some from Dezeen or gooood...etc.When these overseas clients already know about our projects, such as Sala Phuket Resort, Hilton Pattaya, The Commons, I will show them other types of works, let them know that our practice types are varieties, without any type of restrictions. Clients will also find that our designs are not only unique but also innovative; because when we do not copy our own work, the clients know that we are less likely to copy other people’s works(Picture 5).

Kulthida：在這十五年中，Department of ARCHITECTURE是否累積自我的建筑哲學觀與關鍵詞？

Kulthida: During these fifteen years, did the Department of ARCHlTECTURE accumulate selfbuilding philosophy and keywords?

Amata：我們沒有刻意的哲學觀，但或許隨著實踐項目的增加自然而然地產(chǎn)生連續(xù)性。我們盡量避免意圖性的風格，因為風格就像簽名，不管您在什么紙上簽名都會呈現(xiàn)相似的結(jié)果。實際上，我們想寫一本書，這本書會呈現(xiàn)非常精彩的故事，若故事需要更情緒化，我們會試著置入我們的情感，甚至會用手寫的方式來完成這本書，引發(fā)讀者極致和豐富的感受，因此每個項目我們都會思考要寫怎么樣的故事，而非千篇一律的文字和簽名?；氐皆O計操作上，我們并沒有標準化的風格來執(zhí)行項目，在每個項目我們會試著研究場地，或許這個項目需要豐富的色彩、或許那個項目需要純樸的材料，這些取決于怎么樣的故事，我們也試著寫一本獨一無二的劇情，引發(fā)人了解這個場所與建筑（圖6）。

Amata: We don't have a deliberate philosophical view, but it may naturally create continuity as the number of practical projects increases. We try to avoid intent styles, because styles are like signatures, and no matter what paper you sign on, they will show similar results. In fact, we want to write a book, this book will present a very wonderful story, if the story needs to be more emotional, we will try to put our emotions, and even use handwritten way to complete the book, trigger the readers are extremely and rich in feelings, so every project we will think about what kind of story to write, not the same text and signature. Back to the design operation, we don't have a standardized style to execute the project. In each project, we will try to study the site context. Perhaps the project needs rich colors, maybe the project needs simple materials, depending on the story. We also tried to write a unique story that triggered people to understand the place and architecture (Picture 6).

Twitee：至于關鍵詞我們認為是自然而然地！但不管是建筑項目、室內(nèi)項目或景觀項目，我們都會試著用建筑的方式來呈現(xiàn)，而結(jié)果往往讓空間場所達到Total-ness（一體化）的效果；而下一步我們會更關注它是怎樣被人感受，它是怎么被人看？因為建筑總是離不開人的參與和介入（圖7）。當今，明星建筑師不希望自己的建筑看起來很美，他們認為好的建筑或是美的建筑看起來不夠酷，一定要看起來很奇怪或是難讓人理解的，但上述這些卻完全與我們無關。我們不只從建筑師角度出發(fā)讓建筑看起來是美的，我們還希望讓一般大眾也能感受到美，因為一般民眾無法感受到空間的流動性、透明性，但最少他們可以感受到好和美的事物。

Twitee: As for the keywords, we think is natural but whether it is a construction project, an interior project or a landscape project, we will try to present it in a building way, and the result will often make the space place reach the effect of total-ness; and in the next step we will pay more attention to how it is felt, how it is seen. Because architecture is always inseparable from human participation and involvement (Picture 7). Today, star architects don't want their buildings to look beautiful. They think that good buildings or beautiful buildings don't look cool enough. They must look strange or difficult to understand, but these are completely different from us. We not only make the building look beautiful from the perspective of the architect, we also hope that the normal people can also feel the beauty, because they cannot feel the mobility and transparency of the space, but at least they can feel the good and beautiful things.

圖5，The Commons商場/ The Commons（攝影/ Photo：W Workspace）

圖6，泰國創(chuàng)意與設計中心/ Thailand Creative and Design Center（攝影/ Photo: W Workspace）

洪：泰國建筑師正在興起，是什么原因呢？

Hung: What is the reason that Thai architects are raising up?

Amata：我認為是泰國人的性格，我想到之前有一個新加坡業(yè)主找上我們。我問他為什么找泰國建筑師，即便是泰國業(yè)主也會去找新加坡建筑師？他說泰國建筑師不同，您們對于美學有一種自然而然的天性感知。我想他是對的，不僅是建筑而已，對于其他設計也是（圖8）。我們不像日本人對于美學是理性、直白、外向的；泰國對于設計有一種天份，一種自然和自由的想法，這點不僅表達在建筑與設計中，更表達在個性、食物與社會之中。

Amata: I think it is the character of the Thai people. There was a Singaporean client who came to us. I asked him why he was looking for a Thai architect. Even a Thai client would go to a Singaporean architect.He said that Thai architects are different, and you have a natural perception of aesthetics. I think he is right,not only for architecture, but for other designs as well (Picture 8). We are not like the Japanese are rational,straightforward and extroverted to aesthetics; Thailand has a talent, a natural and free idea for design,which is not only expressed in architecture and design, but also in personality, food and society.

洪：泰國建筑正走往哪條道路上？

Amata：非常精彩，非常棒的道路！十五年前當我們開始事務所時，那是一個百家爭鳴的時代，那時候建筑風格還不像當下這么現(xiàn)代，更多的是在“重釋“泰國建筑。我并非是第一個開始抽象演繹泰國當代建筑，但我可以說我是第一批開始的建筑師。我們這代的實踐方式承接了前幾代的前輩的思想，但又走出具有鑒別性的策略，如果要我具體指出這代的創(chuàng)始者的話則是Duangrit Bunnag（DBALP）。另外一方面，十五年前業(yè)主和委托單位并不知道什么是有意義性的建筑，那時候好的建筑只會在紙媒書籍上出現(xiàn)，還不像現(xiàn)在互連網(wǎng)這么普遍；但在之后約五年的時間，開始有一批好的泰國建筑師和事務所崛起，有的是我們的前輩也有很多是我們的晚輩，以前可能只能說出二三家代表性事務所，但現(xiàn)在最少可以說出10家，甚至更多！有的40至50歲，有的40至30歲，更有一些是30歲以下，而這些事務所也逐漸成為泰國“中堅“世代的建筑師。

Hung: Which direction is the Thai architecture going on?

Amata: Very good, very excellent! When we started our office fifteen years ago, it was a time of a lot of different ideas, and the architecture was not as modern as it is now, but more about reinterpreting Thai architecture. I wasn't the first architect to do contemporary Thai architecture, but I can say I was one of the first architects to do it. The way our generation practices is built on the ideas of previous generations, but it goes out of the way of discriminating strategies, and if I am going to specify the leader of this generation,it should be Duangrit Bunnag Architect Limited (DBALP), and we've all worked very hard to go with him,to be very close to him. On the other hand, fifteen years ago, the clients and building approval department did not know what a meaningful building was. But after about five years, a number of good Thai architects and firms began to rise, some of them are our predecessors and many of them are our juniors. Before, we could only name two or three representative firms, but now we can say at least ten or more! Some are in their 40s and 50s, some are in their 40s and 30s, and some are under 30 years old, and these firms have gradually become the backbone of Thai architects for next generations.

Twitee：這個現(xiàn)象最主要是互連網(wǎng)與自媒體的出現(xiàn)，讓普遍大眾了解什么是好的建筑、什么是具意義性的設計，接著當業(yè)主和建筑師都了解這個行業(yè)標準，就會自然而然地加速行業(yè)的成長，是互連網(wǎng)讓當代建筑更豐富、更有影響力?，F(xiàn)在的業(yè)主甚至會說我有多少預算，我要怎么樣的現(xiàn)代住宅，不要過多無謂的裝飾元素等，這些話是不會在十五年前出現(xiàn)的；當今非常多的泰國事務所有強烈的自我風格與設計手法，并意識性的結(jié)合在建筑中。我從未覺得我與這些事務所是在競爭，他們也不覺得與這個群體的其他建筑師在競爭，因為他們各自有強烈的風格，而這也是業(yè)主找上他們的原因。

Twitee: This phenomenon is mainly the emergence of the Internet and self-media, let the general public understand what is a good building, what is a meaningful design, then when the clients and architects understand this industry standard, it will naturally accelerate the growth of the industry. It is the Internet that makes contemporary architecture richer and more influential. The current clients will even say how much budget I have, what modern residences I want, not too many unnecessary decorative elements, etc. These words will not appear fifteen years ago; today, a lot of Thai affairs are all strong the self-style and design techniques are combined with the consciousness in the building. I never felt that I was competing with these firms, and they didn't feel competing with other architects in this group because each of them had a strong design, and that was why the clients found them.

洪：可以給中國創(chuàng)業(yè)的年輕建筑師一些心得分享嗎？

Hung: Can you share some opinions to young architect in China?

Twitee：在開始創(chuàng)業(yè)前，我會建議需要在專業(yè)的事務所學習和工作幾年，因為剛從學校畢業(yè)后，作為青年建筑師并不知道建筑是如何真實站起來的。當他們有更多的實務經(jīng)驗與工作歷練后，他們會有足夠的自信去找到他們自己的價值觀，同時他們也會知道什么時候是成熟的時機創(chuàng)業(yè)、如何將自己的熱情結(jié)合設計。另外一方面，要確認自己真的很喜歡建筑，若不確定自己是否喜歡，那要立刻改變職業(yè)；因為建筑師是一個非常辛苦的職業(yè)，不僅要尋找適合的業(yè)主，更要讓團隊信任，并解決多樣復雜的問題。

Twitee: Before starting a business, I would recommend studying and working in a professional firm for a few years. Because after graduating from school, as a young architect, they don't know how the building actually build up. When they have more practical experience and work experience, they will have enough confidence to find their own values, and they will also know when it is time to start a business, how to combine their passions. On the other hand, make sure you really like architecture. If you are not sure you like it, change your career immediately; because the architect is a very hard job, not only to find the right client, but also to let the team trust, and solve a variety of complicated problems.

圖7，邦盛海灘多功能亭/ The Flow Pavilion（攝影/ Photo: W Workspace）

圖8，Sindhorn住宅/ Sindhorn Residence（攝影/ Photo：W Workspace）