Michel Martin （Byline）： It’s an open secret among African-American men and boys that people are often afraid of them. Ways to deal with this are discussed among family and friends. But today we’re focusing on research about how that fear may influence law 1）enforcement and potential employers. We called Harry Holzer， a professor of public policy at Georgetown University who has studied the way race can affect hiring. UCLA social psychologist Phillip Atiba Goff also joined us. He’s researched how police officers view even very young African-American boys， and I began our conversation by asking about his findings.

Phillip Atiba Goff： What we found was consistent with the previous research that showed that there was an age overestimation of black children. And to some degree， we think it has to do with a lack of familiarity. To some degree， it has to do with these 2）implicit 3）associations we have between black and something sometimes less than human. But what it definitely has to do with is a lack of the full visibility of the humanity of black people from cradle to grave. Martin： You know， we invited our social media followers to tell us whether they ever felt afraid of the presence of African-American men， or—if they were black men themselves—if they felt that they had experienced this fear themselves. We heard from quite a few black men in this callout. We also heard from a number of white women who reported on their experiences. I just want to play one clip from a woman named Angela Dryden. And she says that years ago she was 4）mugged by a group of young black men， and this is how she says this followed her years later into a new neighborhood.

（Soundbite of Archived Recording）

Angela Dryden： It was Valentine’s Day， and I noticed three young black men were， you know， walking behind me. And it reminded me of the mugging scene. And I didn’t want to cross the street because there were three young black men walking the same direction as I was， but it was having an effect on my 5）physiology. I started to shake， and my heart was beating. But I kept walking， and they slowly kind of walked around me， and one of the young men turned round and said， “Hey， lady.” And I said， “Yes？ ” You know， and it croaks out of my mouth because I was totally 6）desiccated from the terror. And he said happy Valentine’s Day.

Martin： Professor Goff， how do you respond to that？

Goff： I mean， you have to feel for this woman who’s having a very human experience， and yet she’s self-aware enough to understand that if she crosses the street， she’s playing into a role that she finds 7）anathema to her own values. I think that’s a situation that many people in America find themselves in where they have these sort of bad facts about racial 8）disparities. They know the rate of criminal activity is higher in black communities. They know educational achievement is lower， and yet they don’t want to be a person who thinks that about an individual. And so that’s kind of the 9）conundrum we find ourselves in trying to find better language to get ourselves out of.

Martin： So Professor Holzer， you have long been interested in the question of how race plays out in the labor markets. From your research， do you think fear plays a role in hiring decisions—particularly race-based fears？

Harry Holzer： I think it does， and I think it’s fear of several different things. I think employers， first of all， worry about weaker performance of black males relative to black women， relative to other groups. And if their performance is weaker， then along with that they might fear more quits， more discharges， needs to discipline employees. Then a second fear， I think， comes in. There’s the fear of conflict， which can be 10）verbal. It can be physical. It could be anything.And then finally—and I think this is a bit of an irony—EEO law. EEO stands for equal employment opportunity law which forbids discrimination in the workplace. It hasn’t eliminated it， but it’s reduced it. I think EEO law plays a funny role in all of this because most suits for discrimination in the workplace are for wrongful termination and wrongful denial of promotion， which means many small， white employers fear that if they have to 11）discipline a black male employee and maybe even 12）discharge them， that there’s a bigger chance that they’ll be sued for that than if they turn them away at the gate.

Martin： （Unintelligible） that we heard from quite a few black men in our callout， including Leo Cunningham. He’s an 13）ordained 14）minister in Columbus， Ohio， and he told us that he has personally experienced potential employers becoming cold to him—in this case， that would be churches—when they found out that he’s black.

（Soundbite of Archived Recording）

Leo Cunningham： To have someone look at you and say， your two master’s degrees， your undergraduate degree， your previous experience—it doesn’t matter if we as Christians think that you are called and ordained by God to be a 15）pastoral leader. The color of your skin prohibits us from wanting to hear anything you have to say about God or our community. That’s a 16）gut punch.

Martin： What about that， Professor Holzer？

Holzer： That’s 17）bias. That’s bias and fear and perhaps fear of the unknown. And there are， in the background of this whole story， a troubling set of statistics that people keep in their heads—lower achievement among black males than almost any other group even if they have the same educational 18）attainment， more behavioral problems in school， lower employment activity， more crime. Now， it’s unfair for those facts to be applied to any particular individual， especially an individual with strong 19）credentials.

Martin： Professor Goff， I was going to ask you about that. Why do you have to set up an environment where people feel safe in their identity？ Some people would say， no I don’t. I just have to set up an environment where people will get the job done. They get paid and go home.

Goff： That-right. I don’t care about your identity.

Martin： Yeah.

Goff： You do that on your own. You take that home with you. It turns out that that’s not a very successful strategy for employers， for educators or anybody else who’s interested in having a diverse team do well. And the reason is because we all walk around with concerns about how we’re going to be 20）evaluated. That’s a human thing. There’s—you’re not 21）paranoid or 22）neurotic because you’re thinking it. But people who come from groups that have 23）stigmas about them—and we all do—when that stigma is relevant， then it can consume your ability to do anything else. So what then happens is they’re spending time having to deal—having to negotiate with it， right？ And that’s time they’re not spending focusing on the task. They’re not able to do nearly as well， and part of the reason is ’cause the work environment feels 24）hostile through no direct 25）animus. No one’s using racial 26）epithets or using sexual 27）slurs， and yet the environment ends up making people sort of focus on concerns about their identity to the 28） exclusion of doing their work in an excellent way.

Martin： Given， though， Professor Holzer， that most hiring managers， I think it’s fair to say， are still white males， the question that comes up for me is are the right people invested in asking themselves these questions？

Holzer： Well， I’d say two things. First of all， the number of managers who are not white males is certainly growing. A lot more white females are showing up in those jobs， a lot more minorities. And the ray of hope—the real ray of hope on all of this is that as the American customer base becomes more diverse， more and more owners of those businesses and more managers whose performance is judged， for instance， by sales to those groups are going to see that they have a real interest in trying to deal with this. And so hopefully they will have an 29）incentive to overcome some of those negative stereotypes that they’ve walked into the room with.

Martin： Thank you both so much for speaking with us.

Goff： Thank you.

Holzer： Thank you very much.

米歇爾·馬?。ㄗ迦耍喝藗兺ǔ峙路侵抟崦绹?guó)男性，這已經(jīng)是一個(gè)公開(kāi)的秘密了。家人和朋友們常常討論如何解決這個(gè)問(wèn)題。但是，我們今天重點(diǎn)研究這種恐懼如何影響法律的實(shí)施和潛在的雇主。我們連線喬治城大學(xué)公共政策學(xué)的教授哈里·霍爾澤，他曾研究種族對(duì)于人才招聘的影響。加州大學(xué)洛杉磯分校社會(huì)心理學(xué)家菲利普·艾迪巴·戈夫也參加了我們的討論。他從事研究警察如何看待年輕的非洲裔美國(guó)男性，我將從咨詢(xún)這些研究調(diào)查結(jié)果開(kāi)始我們的談話。

菲利普·艾迪巴·戈夫：我們的研究發(fā)現(xiàn)和以往的研究結(jié)論一致，黑人小孩常常被高估他們的年齡。在某種程度上，我們認(rèn)為這與熟悉程度的欠缺有關(guān)系。在某種程度上，這也與我們無(wú)形地把黑人和有時(shí)候某種非人性的東西對(duì)應(yīng)起來(lái)有關(guān)。但是這絕對(duì)和人們對(duì)黑人一生的人性完整可見(jiàn)性的缺失有關(guān)。

馬丁：我們邀請(qǐng)了一些社交媒體的追隨者來(lái)告訴我們，他們是否曾經(jīng)懼怕過(guò)非裔美國(guó)男性，或者——如果他們本身是黑人男性——他們是否經(jīng)歷過(guò)那種恐懼。我們聽(tīng)到了不少非洲裔男性的心聲。我們也聽(tīng)到了許多白人女性自述她們的經(jīng)歷。我想播放一段關(guān)于一名叫安吉拉·德萊頓的女性的錄音片段。她說(shuō)幾年前她曾被一群年輕的黑人搶劫，這陰影跟隨她好幾年，直到她后來(lái)搬到一個(gè)新的社區(qū)。

（存檔錄音片段）

安吉拉·德萊頓：那天是情人節(jié)，我覺(jué)察到三個(gè)年輕的黑人小伙，你知道的，正跟隨在我身后。這讓我想起了搶劫的情形。我不想穿過(guò)街對(duì)面，僅僅是因?yàn)槟侨齻€(gè)年輕的小伙正和我走同一個(gè)方向。這讓我心里感到不安，我開(kāi)始顫抖，心跳加速。但是我繼續(xù)走著，他們慢慢走近我，其中一個(gè)人轉(zhuǎn)過(guò)身對(duì)我說(shuō)：“嗨，女士?！蔽覇?wèn)道：“什么事？”我當(dāng)時(shí)完全被那種恐懼嚇壞了，聲音沙啞而低沉。然后他說(shuō)：“情人節(jié)快樂(lè)?！?/p>

馬?。焊攴蚪淌?，您如何看待這件事情？

戈夫：我的意思是，我們不得不同情這位女士，她有著其他人可能遭受的相同經(jīng)歷，但是她依然有著足夠的自我意識(shí)，如果她穿過(guò)馬路，她將扮演一個(gè)有悖她價(jià)值觀念的角色。我認(rèn)為這是許多美國(guó)人置身其中的情況，事實(shí)上就有這么多關(guān)于種族間不平等的負(fù)面事實(shí)。他們知道犯罪率在黑人社區(qū)較高。他們知道黑人社區(qū)教育水平較低，但是他們不想針對(duì)某個(gè)人。所以我們發(fā)現(xiàn)自己身處困境，想要用更好的借口使自己擺脫窘境。

馬?。耗敲椿魻枬山淌冢阋恢币詠?lái)致力于研究種族在勞動(dòng)力市場(chǎng)中的影響。從你的研究來(lái)看，你覺(jué)得恐懼是否能夠在招聘決策中起到關(guān)鍵作用——特別是基于種族的恐懼？

哈里·霍爾澤：我認(rèn)為可以，那是不同的恐懼。首先，我認(rèn)為相對(duì)于黑人女性，相對(duì)于其他族群，雇主擔(dān)心黑人男性的工作表現(xiàn)力更弱。如果他們表現(xiàn)不好，隨之而來(lái)的就是更多的辭工，更多的解雇，需要對(duì)員工進(jìn)行懲罰。然后第二點(diǎn)恐懼也隨之而來(lái)。沖突的恐懼，可能是口頭上的，也可能是肢體上的，可能是任何東西。最后——我認(rèn)為這有點(diǎn)諷刺——就是平等就業(yè)機(jī)會(huì)法律。平等就業(yè)機(jī)會(huì)法律禁止工作場(chǎng)所的所有歧視行為。這沒(méi)有完全消除掉歧視行為，但至少減少了許多這種行為。我認(rèn)為平等就業(yè)機(jī)會(huì)法律扮演著一個(gè)十分滑稽的角色，因?yàn)樵S多工作場(chǎng)所的歧視行為包括非法解雇和非法拒絕晉升，這意味著許多小型的白人雇主覺(jué)得與其嚴(yán)律黑人男性雇員或者是解雇他們，可能因此而受到控告，他們寧愿一開(kāi)始就拒絕雇傭黑人。

馬?。海ㄒ纛l無(wú)法辨認(rèn)）我們聽(tīng)到不少的黑人男性的反饋，包括利奧·坎寧安。他是俄亥俄州哥倫布的一位牧師，他告訴我們他親身經(jīng)歷過(guò)潛在雇主對(duì)他變得冷淡——在這個(gè)案例中，就是在教堂時(shí)——那個(gè)時(shí)候他們發(fā)現(xiàn)他是黑人。

（存檔錄音片段）

利奧·坎寧安：別人看著你，然后說(shuō)，你的兩個(gè)碩士學(xué)位、學(xué)士學(xué)位、你以前的經(jīng)驗(yàn)——作為基督徒的我們認(rèn)為你是被神所感召和命定的牧師領(lǐng)導(dǎo)者，這并不重要。你的膚色阻止我們聆聽(tīng)你任何關(guān)于上帝或者是我們社區(qū)的布道。這無(wú)疑是重重的打擊。

馬?。簩?duì)這你怎么看，霍爾澤教授？

霍爾澤：這就是歧視。這是偏見(jiàn)、恐懼和對(duì)未知的恐懼。從整個(gè)故事的大背景來(lái)看，一組令人不安的統(tǒng)計(jì)數(shù)據(jù)，存在于人們的腦海中——相比于其他族群，黑人男性的成就普遍較低，即使是他們擁有相同的教育程度，黑人男性在學(xué)校有更多的行為問(wèn)題，就業(yè)率較低和犯罪率較高。這些事實(shí)施加于哪一個(gè)個(gè)體身上都是不公平的，特別是擁有強(qiáng)大資質(zhì)的個(gè)體。

馬?。焊攴蚪淌?，這正是我剛想要和你探討的問(wèn)題。我們?yōu)楹我⑵鹨粋€(gè)環(huán)境，在那里人們?yōu)樽陨淼纳矸莞械桨踩?？有一些人?huì)說(shuō)不，我不需要。我只需要建立一個(gè)環(huán)境，大家可以把工作完成，掙得薪水，然后回家。

戈夫：說(shuō)得沒(méi)錯(cuò)，我不在乎你的身份。

馬?。菏堑?。

戈夫：你獨(dú)自完成工作。你把薪水領(lǐng)回家。事實(shí)證明，這對(duì)于雇主、教育工作者或者其他任何也想組建多元化的團(tuán)隊(duì)的人來(lái)說(shuō)，并不是一個(gè)非常成功的策略。原因在于我們都擔(dān)心自己是如何被評(píng)價(jià)的。這實(shí)屬人之常情。這個(gè)想法并不代表你偏執(zhí)或者神經(jīng)質(zhì)。但是如果是來(lái)自帶有羞辱感的群體——雖然我們都這樣——當(dāng)這種羞辱感與之相關(guān)，那么做任何的努力都是徒勞無(wú)功。那么之后他們面臨的就是處理或者是與之談判，對(duì)吧？這個(gè)時(shí)候，他們便無(wú)法專(zhuān)注于工作任務(wù)上。他們無(wú)法做到優(yōu)秀，部分原因就是因?yàn)楣ぷ鳝h(huán)境在間接地使他們感到充滿(mǎn)敵意。沒(méi)有人在使用種族侮辱性稱(chēng)號(hào)和誹謗言論，但是這個(gè)環(huán)境最終還是使得人們重點(diǎn)關(guān)注他們的身份，而不是專(zhuān)注于更出色地完成自己的工作。

馬丁：不過(guò)，霍爾澤教授，考慮到大多數(shù)的招聘經(jīng)理——我想這么說(shuō)是公平的——還是白人男性，我想問(wèn)的是，任職的管理者是否還在糾結(jié)這些問(wèn)題呢？

霍爾澤：嗯，我想要說(shuō)兩點(diǎn)。首先，非白人男性的管理人員數(shù)量正逐漸增長(zhǎng)。更多的白人女性、更多的少數(shù)民族勝任這些工作。希望之光——所有這一切真正的希望之光在于，美國(guó)客戶(hù)群變得越來(lái)越多樣化，越來(lái)越多的企業(yè)所有者和管理者的工作評(píng)估標(biāo)準(zhǔn)來(lái)源于銷(xiāo)量，例如，面向這些群體的銷(xiāo)量，他們預(yù)測(cè)到，努力解決這個(gè)問(wèn)題真的跟他們的利益息息相關(guān)。所以希望他們能夠有動(dòng)力去克服他們本身持有的一些負(fù)面成見(jiàn)。

馬?。悍浅８兄x你倆和我們的談話！

戈夫：謝謝！

霍爾澤：非常感謝！